Money Box Live - 6 May 2002

THIS TRANSCRIPT IS ISSUED ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS TAKEN FROM A LIVE PROGRAMME AS IT WAS BROADCAST. THE NATURE OF LIVE BROADCASTING MEANS THAT NEITHER THE BBC NOR THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE PROGRAMME CAN GUARANTEE THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION PRINTED HERE.

Tape Transcript by JANE TEMPLE

MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter: Paul Lewis
Guests: Tom Hudson, Christopher Gower, Robin Duthy, John Whiting

TRANSMISSION: 6 May 2002
1500 - 1530 RADIO 4

ANNOUNCER: It's two minutes past three and time for MONEY BOX LIVE with Paul Lewis.

LEWIS: Hello and welcome to this bank holiday Money Box Live.

If you are bored with the stock market rubbing along at 5200, you are fed up with your savings earnings 2 or 3% after tax, why not invest in things, from art to dinky toys, from wine to autographed letters, from film posters to Georgian furniture?

They're all much more fun but are they a good investment? Many of these things have risen faster in value than shares on the stock market, but how do you find today's bargains?

Or perhaps wine takes your fancy. But what is en primeur? And with three wine investment companies in liquidation, how do you make sure you're not pouring your money down the drain?

Art and furniture of course are more traditional ways to store up wealth for the future and enjoy it in the present, but can you really make money out of it? What does it cost to buy and to sell? What about insurance? And when you finally want to realise your investment how do you find a buyer? How much will selling cost, and what tax will be due on the proceeds?

Well lots to talk about on this generally wet bank holiday afternoon. You can call Money Box Live now on 08700 - excuse me - 08700 100 444.

With me to answer your questions about investing in things are Chris Gower of Ashton Gower Antiques and a member of the Association of Art and Antique Dealers, and Tom Hudson of Farr Vintners, the country's largest fine wine merchant.

Also standing by is John Whiting of Price Waterhouse Coopers in case we get tax questions, and on the phone we'll talk to Robin Duthy from artmarketresearch.com. - who can tell us what the best investments have been.

And the first question is from Errol in Brighton. Errol your question?

ERROL:Oh yes. I'd like to know if the panel could actually point me in the right direction for the first port of call for novices like myself looking for alternative investment ideas really.

LEWIS: Right, well let's go straight to Robin Duthy from artmarket.research.com. Robin, what have been the best growers in the art and antiques field?

DUTHY: Well there have been a lot as the whole market is so mutlifaceted it's difficult to say how many have done well and how many have done badly. I mean it's just a complete spectrum but photography has been one of the markets that really has performed extremely strongly for the last 25 years.

LEWIS: Are these Victorian photographs or?

DUTHY: These are American - l9th and 20th century European and American. I'm thinking of photographers from Man Rae in the current century, Cartier Bresson, Edward Weston, Ansel Adams and then going back to the last century Julia Margaret Cameron and so on.

LEWIS: So, it's the photographer you have to look for as well as the subject, or only the photographer?

DUTHY: The subject is terribly important too, but the overall growth rate over the last 25 years has been just over 11% and that was admittedly starting from a fairly low base. The average of the sort of mainstream price for all of these 100 photographers in our index was £125 in l975 and it's now up to just over £3,000.

LEWIS: And any thoughts on what will be the best growers over the next few years, cos of course we can always look backwards to see what's done well can't we?

DUTHY: We can. Well most people want to see what the sort of historic pattern has been and English furniture certainly demonstrates a very steady growth - 18th century English furniture has been averaging 9% a year for the last 25 years, Regency furniture 10%, but there are - well there are disadvantages in investing in things as you point out: first of all, it's important to choose things which other people are going to want - I mean in English furniture for instance people are interested in dining room furniture, sideboards and chairs and so on, console tables, that kind of thing. They're not interested really nowadays in night boxes and trays and that kind of thing.

LEWIS: Robin, thanks very much for that, and of course in the studio we have an expert on furniture Chris Gower. Chris, where would you think someone would want to put money for a high return in furniture?

GOWER: I would say, I would agree actually with Robin because fine English furniture has had a very steady increase, and when I say fine I mean the very best Regency, William IV, Georgian period.

LEWIS: You need a lot to fork out though don't you to invest in that?

GOWER: Well that's the unfortunate thing

LEWIS: You're talking tens of thousands if not

GOWER: We are, I wonder how much Errol has to play with, but I mean if it's a lot of money certainly it's a fail safe area yeah.

LEWIS: So you say it's fail safe, you mean it absolutely can't go down?

GOWER: Well it hasn't gone down in the past - and you see there is a finite source of this. I mean more and more people are buying good furniture.

LEWIS: You say it's a finite source, I must raise with you the thing we all fear of course about buying antiques that there isn't a finite source cos people are knocking them up, well in the very back streets of Brighton?

GOWER: Well you've been to strange places if I may say so

LEWIS: No but - genuineness is an issue isn't it?

GOWER: Well, there is another whole area altogether. I mean if you have a lot of money to spend you are obviously or hopefully going to go to a good dealer or a good auction house to buy it. Certainly if I had say £20,000 to spend on a dining table I wouldn't forage around junk markets for that or go to any other dealer but those who belong to trade associations like LAPADA (the Association of Art and Antiques Dealers) or BADA (British Antique Dealers' Association)

LEWIS: And if it turns out that something isn't as it's been described with one of those dealers you get your money back do you?

GOWER: You certainly do because unlike the auction houses and this is my pet hobby horse here, when you buy a piece of furniture from an antique dealer he has to state on his invoice where it was made, when it was made and the material. So, if you subsequently find out that it isn't what your dealer said it was then you are entitled to your money back.

LEWIS: Chris thanks for that and Tom Hudson is also here from Farr Vintners as I said now - Tom, investing in wine is perhaps a bit different from furniture, or is it?

HUDSON: There are elements which are similar and elements which are different. I think with investment in wine you certainly need to be thinking about Bordeaux, you need to be thinking about the top end of Bordeaux and you need to be looking at an investment over a minimum of a five year period.

LEWIS: And Bordeaux is what? Some of it's called Claret, it's the red wine from South Western France, and that's really the investment wine. If somebody offers you investment in Australian Chardonnay then don't take it?

HUDSON: Less proven. The advantage.

LEWIS: He said very politely.

HUDSON: The advantage of Bordeaux is you tend to have large Chateaux with large production of one single wine in every vintage, and that makes them a tradable commodity.

LEWIS: Okay, and when you buy wine, you obviously you have to sell it to somebody, often I know your company buys it - what kind of margin is made on the turn, on the buying and selling because the product grows in value but then you sell it, somebody takes a cut?

HUDSON: That's right, generally speaking it's 10%, so we would offer to buy back wine at 10% less our current selling price.

LEWIS: Okay, well thanks for that. Errol I hope some general tips there about investing. Let's move now to Sheffield where Kate has a question - Kate?

KATE: Hi. I've been left £500 in a will and I want to invest it in a picture of some sort, but I don't know where to start looking.

LEWIS: What sort of pictures do you like Kate, do you want a new picture, an old picture?

KATE: Yeah fairly modern yeah

LEWIS: Modern art - £500 on modern art. Chris have you any thoughts on that?

GOWER: Well Kate's absolutely right to look at modern art because the highest growth in art in the last year has been with 20th century artists, so she's absolutely right to be looking at art. £500 will buy her something actually. I mean first of all it's such a personal thing art isn't it? I mean if you have to look at it first thing in the morning when you get up and look at something you hate, even though it's a good investment, I don't think that's a good investment.

LEWIS: So it's got to be something you like. I mean this is what we always say about investing in objects isn't it? - like it first.

GOWER: Like it

LEWIS: And then the investment side is a plus if you like?

GOWER: It's good luck thereafter. So I think Kate, what Kate should do is get to know her local art dealers up there in Yorkshire, see what's available for £500, if she sees nothing that she likes then come to London, go to the major auction houses. And there are very good art fairs actually - in London we've got the Affordable Art Fair where everything is under £2,000 and that fair's on in Battersea twice a year - good place.

LEWIS: And the local regional arts board I think they're called now will obviously have some advice, and they have dealers I think where you can go and see contemporary artists and buy their work. And just to put another spin on it Tom Hudson, if Kate did decide not to invest in art £500 on wine - can you invest that little in wine?

HUDSON: Certainly there are plenty of opportunities to invest that amount in wine. I have said already that you need to go top end and really top end wine is maybe £1500 a case or more, but there are plenty of things at £500. I'd stick to the criteria - go for a good vintage, a good chateaux, and a chateaux which performed well in that particular vintage and you do need to do some research and do some ringing around to find that information. 96 vintages at the moment is a good buy in some cases - there are plenty on offer for £500 or even less. Chateaux Lynch Barges 96 for example - right now selling at about £400.

LEWIS: Okay so Kate I don't know if wine attracts you, but if it's pictures then talk to dealers, talk to artists and I suppose Chris at least the advantage with contemporary art is you don't have to worry about provenance because the artist's still alive and they can tell you I painted this?

GOWER: That's right, but the minute he drops dead of course the prices go up.

LEWIS: Okay well yes we won't take that one any further I don't think. Okay, let's talk now to Kath in Wellington - Kath?

KATH: Hello, it's Newport actually - Newport, Shropshire.

LEWIS: Kath in Newport?

KATH: Hello. I've got here a Star Wars read along book with an EP and I want a little bit of information on it please - it's l979?

LEWIS: Right, this is from the original, the early Star Wars?

KATH: That's right

LEWIS: It's a book and you've got a - a vinyl record, an EP with it that you play and what's on that?

KATH: And that's a story and it's a read along, you read along - you play the EP

LEWIS: Right

KATH: And you read the book alongside it - it's actually a read along book

LEWIS: Okay, well let's talk about this. I mean this is not Antiques Roadshow - we're not going to value everybody's property Chris - but Star Wars is collectable now isn't it? - the early Star Wars stuff?

GOWER: Yes it is actually Paul. All those early sci-fi things and anything like that is quite exciting to the area of collectables. How long this crazy area will last I don't know but prices have rocketed. And I would advise Kath if she can access Internet. The trouble with putting things into auction is that it's only the two people in the room perhaps and you have to pay the auction's commission etc¿whereas if she can go right to the collector and negotiate separately that is another area altogether where Kath will save money.

LEWIS: So for this kind of thing sell direct to collectors and you can find them through the Internet or I suppose even in small ads in the newspaper or one of those - Loot or somewhere like that?

GOWER: Yes, yes that's right. Actually something that I found out the other day that Thunderbirds - you know Thunderbirds puppets - Lady Penelope went for £20,000 and the Rolls Royce that lovely pink roller went for £80,000

LEWIS: I think it was actually more than you would pay for a real one of that age - I think you'd get one for about eight actually

GOWER: But to go back to this condition is everything - of the book that Kath has, condition is everything.

LEWIS: So if it's been very well read it's probably not worth that much, but if it's pristine, perhaps in a packet or a wrapper, that's really what counts?

GOWER: Yes yes

LEWIS: So keep all those things in very, very good condition. We've had an email actually along similar lines - this is from Nick in Chelmsford - he says I have a collection of Dinky, Matchbox and Corgi toy cars that I collected in the 60s and 70s - most are in good condition and still in their boxes - more than a hundred, wants to sell them, how does he go about it?

GOWER: Well, I would again tell him to look through the Internet - to go straight to

LEWIS: So a collection like that, I mean a hundred items, they could be worth quite a lot each

GOWER: Well they could

LEWIS: Is that not worth auctioning?

GOWER: Well yes, it might be because the specialist auctioneer will know all the little idiosyncrasies about this like a yellow car maybe worth less than a blue car, and all these, the collectors know about that you and I wouldn't necessarily and probably the caller wouldn't know about. But there are these specialist auctions with Christies and in fact all the major auction houses. So perhaps he would be better to go through those channels.

LEWIS: Okay, well I'm sure we'll talk about auctions later, but John Whiting's on the line sorry from Price Waterhouse Coopers - John, this kind of thing where something was perhaps bought for a negligible amount but now maybe worth I'm not saying these Dinky toys are, but maybe worth thousands of pounds, are there tax implications in all of this?

WHITING: The answer is there could be Paul. The difficulty is that things like this are usually exempt but the crux is there's a definition here - isn't there always with tax - 'a wasting asset'. Has it got a predictable life of less than 50 years? If it has, it's outside the tax net so we don't have to worry about capital gains tax. I'm assuming none of the callers will be into trading and making their living out of these things as Chris and Tom are of course, and income tax there. But you know your Dinky Toys, probably they're outside the tax net- predictable life of less than 50 years. But it's furniture, sort of things we were talking about earlier, 17th/18th century furniture, clearly buy and sell those definitely lasting a lot longer than 50 years and in principle in the net

LEWIS: And if they do last more than 50 years, is it all subject to capital gains tax?, how does that work?

WHITING: Well you've a second little bite at it as it were, and that is - if it is a - well the jargon is a chattle, a thing, and it's sold for less than £6,000 then once again it's outside the net, so step one less than 50 years, if it is more than 50 years predictable life of more than 50 years step two - £6,000 or less. If it's sold for a bit more than you get a bit of marginal relief but those are the two steps to get you out.

LEWIS: And of course you have your own capital gains tax allowance every year?

WHITING: Of course, you've still got that to fall back on so even if the inspector decides that the collection of Dinky toys is going to last for more than 50 years which - I don't know, you know you can see an awful lot of argument about such things coming up in the future.

LEWIS: You can indeed can't you? And just to put on my sort of awkward hat for a moment which you know I love to wear on occasions like this - if you had say a set of six dining chairs that was worth £20,000, could you sell them one at a time and avoid the £6,000 limit?

WHITING: Well in principle yes, but of course if you've got a set and I'm treading on Chris' ground here of course then invariably your set of chairs worth £20,000 you say - each chair may only be worth £2,000, so if you just sell them on the market at £2,000 each, well fine, but you've probably made yourself a lot less money. Where there's a bit of anti avoidance is if you sell them or gift them to a near relative - to your son say and £2,000 each, then there is anti avoidance to stop you basically passing on the extra value by selling them bit by bit to him.

LEWIS: Okay thanks for that John. Stay with us because I think you maybe involved in the next question as well. Neil is calling us from Shrewsbury - Neil your question?

NEIL: Hi - I've been collecting angling books for I don't know 15 years now and they just constantly increase in value every time I look to buy one you know I find it's gone up more than I can afford. And I mean I don't pay much into a pension. I did do and then I found I couldn't afford what I was paying, and I just thought that why shouldn't I be able to use the books as a pension and get tax relief on the purchase and use them as a you know as a pension scheme?

LEWIS: Well a subtle idea. John Whiting, can you actually get tax relief on things you buy that you then say - oh this is my pension?

WHITING: Well -it would be a nice idea wouldn't it? - but the short answer is no, although as always there's a possibility - I mean fundamentally you have to be paying into your personal pension scheme or if we're looking at it the company pension scheme, the small company in particular has a quite a bit of scope for where they actually put the pensions money but I don't think the caller's fishing books will qualify for tax relief on this basis. It would be an interesting one.

NEIL: If I was to start up a business buying books and selling a few, surely when I finally retire the books left over, would I then be able to sell those off and use that as a ?

WHITING: Well I think where you'd be there is if you were building your business and selling out your business - you're probably into selling out for - well currently retirement relief in the future- a nice tapered gain, so I think the Revenue would say they're giving you tax relief in that respect rather than through a pension fund.

LEWIS: So okay consult an accountant, but possibly that's not going to work but Neil anyway - but certainly take some advice on that. I'll just go to one of our emails cos I know this is a point that Chris feels strongly about - it's from Tim - antiques and sales rooms he says - perhaps you could point out it costs up to 25% if you sell at auction and that sale rooms are not covered by the trade descriptions act so it's buyer beware.

GOWER: That's absolutely right - caveat emptor. Well that is the problem with buying and selling in sale rooms.

LEWIS: But just be clear about this thought cos not everyone obviously goes to auctions that much. If something is sold at auction, we see that what's call the hammer price, the price it's actually sold for at say £20,000 - where does sale room make its money?

GOWER: Well it makes its money on the seller's 20% sometimes - sometimes 15% and the buyer's 15 or 20%.

LEWIS So it charges both sides?

GOWER: It charges at both ends plus VAT on the margin of the premium. So it's a lot of money the auction houses get for effectively doing very, very little. You're asking a dealer here.

LEWIS: Well yes obviously but I mean presumably you buy things at auction and I imagine on occasion you've sold things at auction.

GOWER: That's right. We try not to

LEWIS: Regardless of how much they do, obviously they are making their margin but they're charging both sides so if something sells for say £10,000 the auction - the buyer doesn't pay that price and the seller doesn't get that price. The auction house takes a big chunk out of the middle of it.

GOWER: That's right

LEWIS: And that's one of the costs, but of course even if you - even if somebody comes to you and sells you something you are going to put it in your shop window at a lot more than you paid for it, so there is also a commission if you like to be paid there isn't there?

GOWER: Well, not really. I mean when you sell something through a dealer you get the cash there and then or the cheque and it is agreed. There are no hidden surprises. The auction might say well Mr. Jones, you know if we photograph your chair and put it in the catalogue that'll cost you another £50 and there are all these hidden little costs that suddenly when the thing sells for £1,000 you're left with £750 and not the £1,000 that you were expecting at all.

LEWIS: Now Tom Hudson, defend your former employer, you used to work for Christies - is all this true?

HUDSON: Absolutely true. With wine the commission rates are a little bit less so you would expect to pay between 10 and 15% in England, maybe 18-20% on the continent if you were selling at auction, but it is a big margin and dealers like ourselves are working on 10% and like has already been mentioned that cash is paid immediately on receipt of goods.

LEWIS: And people know exactly what it is - no hidden surprises. Okay let's move on to Betty now who's ringing from Caterham. Betty your question?

BETTY: I've got some old wines that have been hanging around for long enough and I just wondered if they were worth drinking or eating or selling - they adte from l959.

LEWIS: Well Tom, I'm sure you'll want to know a bit more about this wine

HUDSON: Okay, so l959 - do you know what the wines are?

BETTY: It's a chateau plantier rose

HUDSON: Chateau which sorry?

BETTY: Plantier rose

HUDSON: Rose - well I'm very sorry to say that I would have thought your rose of that age will be well over the hill by now and really not worth much at all.

BETTY: So down the drain one. Now there's a '62 Chateau neuf Margaux - product of France.

LEWIS: That's Margaux

HUDSON: Yes it sounds like it. Again a particularly valuable wine I don't think and probably getting a little bit old now. We were talking about perishable goods and so on and I think that may have seen better days.

LEWIS: Maybe a number of people listening Tom have got wine that they wonder well as I haven't drunk it maybe it's worth having. So where do they go and get information and help about this?

HUDSON: Again, the Internet would be a good starting point. Ringing around merchants again to get advice - there are a few sharks out there - you've mentioned that already and I think you do have to be careful. You do need to shop around.

LEWIS: And go to a reputable wine dealer. I mean obviously I'm sure you'd say yours but there must be others?

HUDSON: Oh there are plenty.

LEWIS: But generally speaking if wine is 40 or 50 years old it's probably not going to be worth much because it will have passed the best time for drinking it. When do they mature these wines that we're talking about?

HUDSON: Well we've been talking about Bordeaux haven't we - the very best Bordeaux wines will keep for 50 years and some for longer. Sweet wines particularly too do tend to age for longer, but I think most Bordeaux really is best drunk between 10 and 20 years of age.

LEWIS: Okay, so if you have some old wine then consult a reputable dealer - I think we're going to be saying that quite a bit in the next few minutes. We've got a question now from Barbara in Leybourne - Barbara?

BARBARA: Hello. I have a Susie Cooper dinner set and it also has an accompanying coffee set - eight piece, eight places in each case. I know now that Susie Cooper's gone up because the factory has closed. How does one find out the value of it?

LEWIS: Do you have any idea about the age?

BARBARA: l950s.

LEWIS: Right. Chris?

GOWER: Yes, there is actually a Susie Cooper collectors club is the first off and I don't know their number here but all these collectables have their own collectors clubs. Susie Cooper actually took off where Clarice Cliff ended because Clarice Cliff is now through the roof price wise -you need to be pretty wealthy to buy that and Susie Cooper, very, very clever artist, designer - she is really coming up the ranks.

LEWIS: And as with everything, condition, completeness - everything has to be perfect to realise that value?

GOWER: Absolutely. Although individual pieces as well fetch good money but if you have as Barbara seems to have the complete dinner service and tea set - very nice thing indeed. She's sitting on a nice investment there I thought, but first of all there are again the auction houses, there are dealers and there are the collectors clubs, so there maybe someone out there Barbara who's just looking for the pieces that you've got.

LEWIS: And I suppose in general you say it's a nice investment although they are valuable now, you think they're going to get more valuable, it maybe worth hanging on if she doesn't have to sell it now until maybe she needs the money a bit later in life?

GOWER: Well that's right. I think they will go up because I mean these things have stopped being made so with more collectors around snapping them up the danger of course is that the collectors will one day want to shed their collections and therefore the whole thing will plummet. But for now it looks pretty good.

LEWIS: Okay, so some advice on selling, but also if you can keep it Barbara perhaps keep it for a bit longer. Let's talk now to Sancha in Bracknell. Sancha your question?

SANCHA: I'm considering purchasing a Jack Vettriano painting on the assumption that it will be a good investment but my real interest is insurance, whether or not I should use my normal house insurance company, whether or not there are specialist insurance companies, and the frequency for reappraisal of something like this?

LEWIS: What sort of price are we talking about?

SANCHA: In the region of £20,000

LEWIS: £20,000, so it's a picture obviously you like but you also think will go up in value.

SANCHA: I'm hoping yes

LEWIS: Well never mind, if you enjoy it on the wall that's the main thing isn't it? - but obviously you've got to protect it. Chris, what do people do with these valuable things in houses? It can be a bit alarming can't it?

GOWER: Well it can and it does obviously affect the insurance. I like what Sancha's doing because obviously she's buying something that she's absolutely passionate about, she's investing a hefty amount of money in this. I hope she will be looking at this painting and enjoying it. Will it need to be locked up? Will it need to be put away when she goes on holiday? Will she have a reliable alarm system in the house and all this sort of thing and proper locks and lockable windows and the list goes on you know requirements from the insurance companies, but if she's prepared to do all that I think well good luck to her.

LEWIS: Yes there are some specialists aren't there? - there's Hiscox, Axa Art and Chubb all do it and of course if you go through the British Insurer's Brokers Association and there's a link to that on our website, a reputable local broker will actually find you the insurance you want and with that insurance will come these terms like you must fit an alarm, you must have certain standards of locks, and as you say sadly you might even have to lock it up somewhere else when you go on holiday, so you'll be house sitting your picture for the rest of your life Sancha, but anyway good luck with that, it sounds a very, very nice thing to buy. Let's talk to Charlotte now in Peterborough:

CHARLOTTE: Hello. Hi my daughter has been left £5,000 and rather than stick in the bank which is pretty boring I thought I would buy her a piece of jewellery. I just wanted to know whether it's better to buy antique, buy new or commission her a piece?

LEWIS: Right, well let's ask Chris about that - commissioning or buying antique?

GOWER: Not to commission. Certainly with £5,000 you can buy some very nice art deco/art nouveau which is an area in jewellery particularly which is on a growth trend.

LEWIS: So that's sort of turn of the last century up until the sort of l910/l920s?

GOWER: Well yes - the turn of the century nouveau and then up to the 20s - late 20s deco. Very, very stylish period in jewellery and very good, very good materials used, good designers and it seems to be going up in value, so that's what I would advise. Yes, you can have things designed for your own use and current jewellery but for growth definitely that period.

LEWIS: Yes because certainly buying modern jewllery there's a lot of it - it's very expensive but there's not much value in the piece. It's because these are rare, unusual and beautiful that the value goes up?

GOWER: Exactly and you're buying into the style as well - a very fashionable style at the moment. LEWIS: And Tom very briefly, £5,000 you'd recommend wine I'm sure, what would you buy with £5,000?

HUDSON: Well certainly £5,000 would allow you to buy some really top wines so we're talking first growth Claret maybe in excess of £1,000 a case and you could buy three or four cases of really superb wine which is going to develop over a 10 year period. LEWIS: And that would give you a return?

HUDSON: That would give you a very good return. If you look at a vintage like the 90 vintage, you know 600-700% over the last 10 years.

LEWIS: Well that can't be bad can it? Well that's all we have time for today I'm afraid this bank holiday Monday. My thanks to Chris Gower of Ashton Gower Antiques, Tom Hudson who you heard just there of Farr Vintners - also John Whiting of Price Waterhouse Coopers and Robin Duthy from artmarketresearch.com. Thanks to you for your calls. There's information about the programme on our website: www.bbc.co.uk/moneybox. And with our Action Line: 0800 044 044 I'm back on noon on Saturday with MONEY BOX and Vincent Duggleby will be taking more of your call son MONEY BOX LIVE at three o'clock next Monday afternoon.

BACK ANNO: That was Paul Lewis and the producer was Louise Greenwood.