Bishop defends Lords role

Bishops wants more religious leaders in the Lords

Bishops should not be ousted from the House of Lords as they bridge the huge gap between government and the most deprived areas, says a leading churchman.

The Bishop of Southwark, the Right Reverend Tom Butler, pressed for more religious representatives in the Lords as Labour MP Chris Bryant argued peers should be chosen by the people, not by God.

The debate came in a seminar organised by democracy campaign group Charter 88 to discuss where religious representation in the House of Lords.

Campaigners for House of Lords reform fear the issue is being "kicked into the long grass" amid reports of cabinet divisions.

Crucial role

There are currently 26 Church of England bishops in the House of Lords and the government proposes such religious representation should continue.

Bishop Butler said the "immense gap" between central government and local communities justified the bishops' place in the second chamber.

"It is the faith communities particularly in some of the most battered parts of our country and in the most deep rural areas that actually have got the real community," he said.

Those essential grass roots links came through church schools, drop in centres, hospital and prison chaplains and the fact that clergy actually lived in those deprived areas.

Chris Bryant: Parliament like a Shakespeare play

"Frankly, it's not for the good of the Church of England that bishops are in the House of Lords," said Bishop Butler.

"It's for the good of the most battered people in the local community because it's their stories, more often than not, that we are handling."

The bishop stressed the Church of England believed that representatives of other faiths and other Christian denominations should also get places in the Lords.

Bishop Butler added: "This world is a world in which religion is increasingly significant, both for good and bad.

"Any society that does not take religion very seriously indeed is in danger of getting some very unpleasant surprises."

'No God-given right'

But Rhondda MP Mr Bryant said it was a "fake argument" to suggest faith representatives were somehow the "filling in the sandwich" between government and local people.

Indeed, the bishops would use their time better if they did not have to come to the House of Lords.

Lord Ahmed says the Lords must reflect society

"I see absolutely no reason why any particular part of the community should have a right, whether God-given or otherwise, to sit in the legislature," said Mr Bryant.

The MP, himself an Anglican, suggested Parliament sometimes resembled a Shakespearian play, with the bishop of Carlisle still giving advice to the government.

There was a sense of "effortless Anglican superiority" produced by the presence of bishops in the Lords, said Mr Bryant.

He said lords with spiritual views but without the tag of "Lords spiritual" - the name given to bishops in Parliament - played a more justifiable role.

That was an argument echoed by Lord Ahmed, a Muslim Labour peer.

Lord Ahmed underlined the need to make the Lords properly reflected the make up of British society.

'Reawakening democracy'

But achieving that aim did not mean there had to be bishops, imams, muftis or Jewish or Sikh leaders, he argued.

"We need to make sure that we have people from all backgrounds, all faiths, and if it's an elected chamber we also need to make sure that ethnic minorities and religious groups are there," added Lord Ahmed.

Rabbi Jackie Tabbick, who is on the executive of the Inter-Faith Network, stressed the problems for many religious groups in choosing representatives to sit in the Lords.

"We recognise the difficulties of entering the minefield of trying to ensure fair religious representation across the myriad of groups that live and work in our midst," she said.

She backed a fully-elected House of Lords, saying reform of the chamber offered a real chance to reawaken British democracy.