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Tuesday, 17 July, 2001, 08:03 GMT 09:03 UK
Are congestion charges the answer to gridlock?
![]() A central plank of the new transport strategy for London is a £5 daily charge for motorists coming into the city at peak times.
The mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, hopes that this will reduce traffic in town by 15% and raise up to £200m a year, most of which will be used to improve public transport. But critics of the scheme say it is unworkable and unfair. They also claim it will probably lead to more congestion as people try to avoid the charging areas. Do you drive into central London? Would such a charge deter you? Do you live in a city that already has them? Do they work? This Talking Point has now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.
Kate, UK
I work in London and have two main points: 1. rush hour travel on trains or tubes is already a claustrophobic nightmare. If this is really meant to get cars off the road, where are the ex-drivers meant to go? I do use public transport and, if I didn't think this was a cynical ploy more to do with raking in cash than reducing congestion, I would be very worried about dangerous overcrowding. 2. My (non- lucrative public sector) job often involves very early, very late, night and weekend shifts. Public transport doesn't feel safe for a woman at those times - and isn't reliable outside ordinary working hours anyway. My boss isn't going to pay for me to drive in - but I don't have any other choice, so I (and all others who work unsocial hours) will be penalised. Thanks, Ken.
Richard is mistaken if he thinks buses are clean. They are far worse than cars, have a high axle weight so cause far more damage to roads (about 5000 times more damage) and in the UK carry on average the same number of passengers as less than six cars.
I can see a big investment in congestion charging technology going to waste as collecting the charges will be impossible without a very heavy, expensive and unacceptable intervention by the Police.
Theoretically, city tolls are probably the best way to clear the cities of automobiles. Unfortunately, there are still far too many firms, particularly in London, that will pay the charges for their employees, in the same way as they currently provide free parking in their office car parks. It's time action was taken against the company car providers as well as the private motorist.
There are people who, no matter how good the public transport system, need to drive into the city. Imagine if you were a builder, you'd have a van full of tools you need to use for your job. It is impossible for you to carry all your tools plus Mrs Jones's new sink, Mr Smith's new front door and the new gas fire that you had to pick up from the merchants for the mother-in-law. Add to that the fact you may need to go into the city 3,4 or even 5 times a day. That's up to £25 a day times the 5, 6, or 7 days a week you work. It comes to a cost of up to £175 per week which equates to a staggering £9100 a year, where would that money come from, by charging the customer extra?
So to anybody who thinks this city toll would be a good idea just remember that when your builder is charging you an extra £5 a day for having to drive into the city to do your new extension, or replace that antiquated gas fire in your front lounge!
Peter Barber, England
I think the mayor is right in wanting to cut pollution and traffic chaos, but this is half the issue.
Provide a clean, reliable and efficient public transport system and 50% of cars will be off the road tomorrow. Apply a congestion toll and you are again infringing on the liberties of people to chose the means of transport that advance their interests.
The reasons behind London gridlocks is the continued failure of governments, mayors and the lot to provide a well funded, conveniently priced public transport to serve Londoners and non-Londoners.
In short the charge will exacerbate the problem of traffic and pollution.
Isn't it funny that socialists, who say they support the little man, the people on lower incomes, seem to think that the answer to all problems is to put a tax on them, thus hitting the very people they claim to support.
I live in a street in Tower Hamlets less than 200 metres from the boundary of the zone.
The increased traffic passing my kids' primary school so as to avoid the charging zone is going to be really dangerous for my kids and the others at our school. The Highway is already one of London's most dangerous roads and traffic levels towards Tower Bridge are likely to soar.
The zone should be extended to encompass most of Tower Hamlets at least as far as the Blackwall Tunnel otherwise our streets are going to become some of London's largest car parks.
Martyn Williams, London, UK
Do we want less congestion? Yes. Are cities better places to be without cars in every available nook and cranny? Yes. Will people leave their cars behind voluntarily? No. We may not like the thought of paying for the luxury of taking a car into someone else's environment, but I can't think of a better way of doing it. Let's stop bitching about the thing, bite the bullet and start making motorists pay for their unwanted intrusion into the lives of city dwellers.
I don't care how much they charge as long as it gets rid of the ever-present queue of cars along Newgate to St Paul's. I nearly choke to death on all the car fumes along there every day, and wince every time I see a poor cyclist trying to squeeze through his/her cycle lane that a kindly driver has veered into because they can see a two inch gap 100 yards up the road!
Sixy, London, England
It's a good, but half-baked idea. Ken should have gone further by extending the boundary to all inner London boroughs or even further out. As it stands the perimeter will be gridlocked. The real problem is Home Counties commuters driving in where they have a real alternative - the train.
Has Ken travelled by train from St Albans to King's Cross recently at peak times? I recommend he do so, toilets overflowing down the corridor, no seats available no air conditioning in summer. Let him put the charge up to £10.00, it's still cheaper to travel by private car than rail, even if the car is a gas-guzzler, and it's a damn sight more comfortable.
Frank, UK
It's a good, but half-baked idea. Ken should have gone further by extending the boundary to all inner London boroughs or even further out. As it stands the perimeter will be gridlocked. The real problem is Home Counties commuters driving in where they have a real alternative - the train.
Andrew Howlett is ignorant to think that buses are 100 times more polluting than cars: modern diesel catalysts are extremely efficient. He also forgets that he should be comparing the emissions of just one bus with around SEVENTY cars, once the typical number of passengers is taken into account!
I'm fed up of standing on a full bus waiting for the four people in four cars ahead of me. London is no longer a place for cars, why should those of us using public transport have to put up with them?
Julie Bagshore, London
If congestion charging is such a great idea, why not apply it to public transport? After all, trains and tubes are overcrowded, so by the same logic the problem can be solved by raising the fares to the point where the poor are priced off the system and all trains run around half empty. After all, by Ken's logic, poor people's journeys cannot possibly be necessary.
If the same principle doesn't apply, why not?
People seem to think cars are the problem. There are too many people living in London. Britain is full to bursting. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm glad I moved to Auckland!!
I'm not opposed to this idea in principle, but surely we need to get the public transport infrastructure right first. London's train and tube network is already dangerously overcrowded during the rush hour. It seems to make no sense whatsoever to force people off the roads and onto public transport without investing first to ensure that the system can cope with the added demand. Otherwise we run a real risk of a Hillsborough-style disaster in some overcrowded underground station.
The traffic problem is the effect not the cause. It is the overpopulation of business and people in the South East of England that is the cause. Give the regions a chance, invest in decent ICT and transport links outside London, equalise the playing fields throughout the UK and business may see less necessity to congregate in one area. That will improve the lifestyle for those remaining in London and spread the wealth to other parts of the country.
Graham Nalty, UK
I had the misfortune to work in London some years ago. Travelling in on the train I heard a litany of complaints from regular commuters. Asked why they worked in central London, or why their office could not be relocated to the suburbs, most replied indignantly that their "company's status would suffer if they moved out!".
I assume that MPs will be excluded or will get a(nother) pay rise to compensate them
I have stopped driving into London.
I take the 9:30am train into the city and work a bit later, it is much less stressful. Trains are not crowded, and fares cheaper. Staggered working hours is the answer to cut congestion both on the roads and public transport system.
People in London don't need a car. It is far cheaper to use a taxi or hire a car at weekends, if needed!
May I suggest that the people complaining about the congestion in London spend a day 'out West'. It has been proved that Bristol has the slowest traffic outside of central London, in the UK. We don't have an underground or a half-decent rail network and the bus system is a virtual monopoly run, it seems, solely for the shareholders of FirstGroup plc (yet another legacy of the Thatcher years). For at least the last 20 years, a tram system has been mooted without ever getting from the discussion stage.
I would support congestion charging here, provided there was an alternative proper public transport system in place which would not mean shelling out £1.75 for a six mile journey that can take around an hour in the morning, often standing all the way!!
A brilliant idea, use the money to
improve the public transport system.
The only problem I can see is the
profiteering by the privately owned
transport companies with their latest
subsidies. Obviously, the next step
should be the nationalisation of the
transport system. Over to you Tony!
The inevitable complaints that
public transport should be upgraded
first is a delaying tactic and the
perfect excuse to do nothing while
the chicken-and-egg debate rages.
And get rid of the oversized HGVs in
town while you're at it.
It's just another tax on motorists. If Ken Livingstone really wanted to keep cars out of the city, he would ban them. But as he knows that most drivers will find the money from somewhere, he rubs his hands with glee. Secondly, if people give up their cars and use buses instead, air quality in London will get worse, not better, as buses are 100 times more polluting than the modern car. Sheer stupidity.
I hope those of you who voted for Ken Livingstone will be happy to pay without complaint. His policies were clear on this matter - I certainly didn't vote for him! Fairness has nothing to do with transport in London if it did residents would get residents permits free. I guess the Government wishes to just add another tax.
The solution to gridlock is decent public transport. Will somebody in government please wake up and do something!
John Roberts, UK
This is a good idea but next the daily price should go up by £5 each year and at the 10-year point all cars and motorbikes should be banned from the city. All the revenue during this period, which I am sure will be vast, must be poured into providing more and QUALITY public transport. Why not build a mono rail as they have in Sydney and let's do something rather than just talking.
One segment of the population has been left out of this debate - working women with children. My boss already has to get up exceptionally early to ensure her two children get to school - one of whom she feels is safest if she is able to drive her there - before she drives to work. In order to achieve the same using public transport, she would have to take a bus to the school and then an extremely circuitous route on one bus or use a train and bus to reach her destination. Provision of a safe alternative to the school-run must be considered as part of the overall scheme.
Suzie Wensley, UK
Stop penalising motorists, Ken, admit they give you huge revenues already. Concentrate instead on making travel easier for cars, but create a public transport infrastructure which gives drivers a sensible, viable alternative. At the moment public transport is even more gridlocked, smelly, inefficient .....
I think that this is a good idea, but the pricing of public transport should be made a lot cheaper to encourage people to use it.
It could be a good plan. However, how does £5 differentiate the people who have a genuine need to drive into London from the people who could take public transport? Doesn't it just differentiate the rich commuters, who can easily afford this charge, from the less wealthy travellers?
Biff Scholey, UK
Any congestion charging, anywhere, is an admission that the people in charge of that city's roads have totally failed to organise the traffic intelligently. It may also just be an easy way of getting more funds. But it must be realised that by doing it they are markedly reducing the efficiency of that city, because the car/truck are far and away the most efficient and quickest means of transport.
There is no doubt that something must be done about the congestion problem, but I think a £5 flat-rate fee is too simplistic. There should be a system which progressively allows cars with one or more passengers a discount, and also cars with large engine sizes (e.g. over 3L) should have to pay a premium. I'm sure most Londoners will tell you the proportion of traffic made up by fat-cat executives in their 7-series BMWs and S-class Mercedes is quite staggering. Having said that, the system will be unworkable without a FAR better public transport system.
If motorists are unhappy in the UK, they should try the ultimate "poll tax" as we have in France. Sure, tax on fuel is lower and there's no road tax, however travelling on the motorways is just silly. Travelling from my home in Lyon to Calais costs about £60.00 in motorway charges. No wonder the motorways are empty.
Richard How, UK
It would be great to get all the plebs off the street so my Mercedes limousine can get through clearly. Seriously though, perhaps if it were coupled with £5 back every time I took the tube and had to travel in searing heat on a train so crowded I could barely move (literally) then it wouldn't be so bad. You can't expect people to leave their cars and take public transport when public transport struggles to cope with the people that already use it.
If it looks like a tax and costs the same as a tax, it's a tax.
And those of you thinking that this won't effect me, maybe because you don't drive, are wrong. Every newspaper, banana and Mars bar sold in the capital will now have a small percentage of this tax applied to it.
Of course the big test will be how much of this tax is redirected to the roads, rail etc.
These charges are desperately needed and long overdue. If the volume of traffic coming into central London can be dramatically reduced and given the appropriate reinvestment, commuters could be moved around at street level in buses at a fraction of the cost of the renovation required to the tube infrastructure.
As a concession to those who have a genuine need to drive in the exclusion zones, perhaps there could be a sliding toll based on engine capacity?
In Zurich, where I live, congestion is mastered by the combination of an efficient, fast and integrated public transport system and attractive park and ride facilities. Taxis are also good and fairly cheap. There is no road pricing system, and I do not think such a system would work as it would only spark opposition against traffic control measures. Rather, car parking facilities are intentionally restricted. People who genuinely have no alternative to their car due to disabilities, occupational reasons etc, have free or low-cost car parking.
Tony, UK
Well done Ken!
As usual the motorist is the soft touch. Provided congestion is tackled from an emissions perspective, it's an idea but nothing more. But as long as the British Government and media continues to lie to the public about environmental issues, such a tax is utterly unsustainable. I would far rather sit in traffic with my engine running for an hour than use a bus, where one has to remove half eaten sandwiches, chewing gum and cigarette ends from the seats.
Way to go, Ken. If you can make public transport reliable and practical for everyone who needs it within 30 months I'll eat my crash helmet. At least you've had the sense to leave motorbikes out of it - they take up virtually no space and are far less polluting than cars. Oh, and hardly any bikes are 2-strokes any more.
Hugh, UK
This is a ridiculous solution. I work in the city and travel in every day from Limehouse. Roadworks and contractors continually digging up the same piece of road is a major cause of congestion - the problem is not just the volume of traffic. Until there is a serious solution to this ill thought out building work on the roads London's traffic will be at a standstill. It's about time our mayor put his mind to sorting out the overdigging of the roads and addressed the issue of the appalling tubes and trains.
Being both a cyclist and a driver in London I can appreciate both sides of the argument. I must say that having a levy on journeys into the city would mean less frivolous car journeys, thus reducing congestion and improving safety for cyclists. However, there must be investment in the public transport system before tolls are implemented - increasing the load on an already stretched network would be madness.
I'm sick and tired of hearing motorists moaning on about how they are the long suffering victims of unfair discrimination. The simple reality is that we urgently need to reduce the levels of congestion in Central London. How else can this be achieved? A voluntary ban?
Freddie Tan, Singapore
Perhaps all the people who think motorists should pay more than currently, could explain where billions of pounds of revenue raised from the car tax and 85% of the cost of each litre of fuel have been spent. Not on public transport renewal and very little on road improvements - so what do you think will happen to this £5/day surcharge? Improved public transport? Tube investment? Safer cycle ways? Rose-tinted glasses will be issued with every month's worth of car charges bought!
I wholly agree with the charges - how is public transport going to improve if it doesn't have the money from this? Will the person who said 'stop giving Railtrack money' really find the trains more pleasant to travel on? Yes, I am a car driver in London. I have two classic cars, and I know it's a luxury to drive around town. If we insist on choking the city with fumes and congestion, why shouldn't we pay? Public transport isn't always ideal, but it's often much more convenient than the car - and quicker. Not all car owners are selfish; some of us do realise that it's not always appropriate to drive them.
Paul Little, UK
The £5 charge doesn't go far enough: cars should be completely banned from areas of central London (at least during commuter time) unless drivers have a good reason to be allowed in. There is absolutely no excuse for driving to work in central London: admittedly, public transport isn't perfect, but it already conveys the majority of people to work - and you can always cycle. In addition, with no cars there could be far more and far quicker buses: at the moment, there is a Catch 22 with people unwilling to give up cars until public transport is improved, but public transport cannot be improved until there are fewer cars on the road.
Phin, UK
I doubt if this will achieve much. The few people who do drive to work will either pay up, get their employers to pay, or commute to tube stations outside the exclusion zone (and clog these areas up a bit more). This is all about Red Ken being seen to do something. Apart from Ken, the only people who will be happy are those who will collect (and waste) the money and the leftie, sandal-wearing cyclists (who generally avoid the roads and cycle on the pavements anyway) who can have a good moan about city fat cats and people in cars.
I'm all for these congestion charges. I only regret that the charge is not higher and extended to other regions of London. There is no need to drive into work in central London, public transport is adequate although in need of investment. I for one am fed up with the anti-social behaviour of the numerous car drivers who feel they have a right to poison our air with the exhaust fumes their cars spew forth.
Marcus, Sheffield, UK
I think that it's a great idea. Who wants to work in London any more anyway ?
No, congestion charges are not the answer. They are a "poll tax on wheels". The well-off will hardly notice them, while people on modest incomes will be hit hard. If you need to travel daily into central London, it will cost you over £1100 a year - out of post-tax income!
And gridlock will increase as drivers seek to avoid the charging area, and new development clusters on its edge where people can actually get to it without being fleeced. "Soak the motorist" is not the answer to our transport problems.
John Wadsworth, England
Once again we see evidence that the long-suffering motorist is a government cash cow. I work in Cambridge (one of the cities to be included in the roll out programme) and I can see the tab being picked up by the employers rather than the employees. Where the high technology sector is trying to attract workers, the congestion surcharge will be paid by employers along with any proposed parking fees. It is bad enough being penalised and taxed to the hilt as motorists, now we will be penalised for going to work, too. There is no way that people will stop using their cars to get to work, not until trains are safe, frequent, affordable and reliable.
Solomon Drury, UK
So, according to Toby Aldrich public transport is unhealthy and inefficient. I suppose he drives a car that runs on fresh air and always has five people travelling in it? Ken Livingstone should be saluted for having the courage to take this proposal forward. This nation has to realise that it cannot continue to enjoy the oil-driven free lunch to which it has become accustomed. There are significant social and environmental costs that are associated with motoring and these costs (pollution, injury etc) are more likely to affect the poor - the very people who are least likely to have a car. This charge is a step in the right direction towards drivers (myself included) paying the true costs of their dirty habit. If this funds a radical improvement in public transport then so much the better - then there will be no excuse not to use it.
Very glad to see that Ken Livingstone has excluded motorcycles from the charges. Modern motorcycles are clean, efficient vehicles especially if your journey is longer than a few miles. Paul and Mike, who say they should be taxed, should remember that you can get six motorcycles in the space of one car. Alongside the bicycle they make a big contribution to easing congestion in cities.
Ron Levy, UK
No doubt many car drivers will be mailing in their anger and frustration at these proposals. Excellent! Now you know how those of us who walk, cycle or use the crumbling public transport system feel about you!
Get used to schemes like this - there's a lot more to come before we can turn this ship around.
I personally think it's an excellent move. I live in an area surrounded by large roads to the west and would openly welcome any solution to cut traffic.
The best I can remember was during the petrol problems last autumn, the roads were wonderfully clear and pollution was notably lower. You could walk down major roads in the middle of the day, roads that are normally filled with singularly occupied cars doing no more than 5 mph.
Driving a car is not a right. People should pay for the privilege just as we do to ride in a taxi.
Not exactly what I would call a strategy really, more a case of fleecing the motorist yet again. It's a tired and well worn road to cheap money that will be misused once again. Here's a novel thought, maybe provide the motorist with a cheap reliable alternative and then perhaps there will be some justification on introducing a levy.
Mark, UK
Excellent. However, I don't believe Ken has gone far enough. There should be a reverse tariff based on the number of people in the car. For example, driver only pays £15.00, driver + one passenger pays £10.00, driver + 2 pays £5.00 and driver + 3 pays zero. Car sharing should be encouraged.
But why would motorbikes be exempt?
Having said all that, Ken had better make sure public transport is up to scratch.
Yes traffic is congested in central London, but the majority of it appears to be necessary - buses, taxis and delivery vans. Most people who work in central London wouldn't dream of driving into London. Parking charges are enough to put you off without the prospect of sitting in traffic for 2 hours or a congestion charge being levied. Maybe we should just accept that there are a vast number of people in London and to serve them all means congestion.
London is dirty and overcrowded. Although other public services are not at their best, the move is a good step. It will force people to be more considered when using their cars and reduce congestion. Well done Ken!!
Mike, UK
This would not deter me at all. What is more, I would be looking for my employers to pick up the tab. Well done for finding another way to raise yet more money to waste.......
Although this presents issues about privileges for the better off, this is a good idea, but why set so low? With BIG city salaries surely this will just log as a business expense. Why not issue permits according to need.
Yet again, the stick is being used against motorists, without the commensurate improvements to public transport. I resent being forced onto unhealthy, inefficient, inadequate public transport. Make it better, and there would be no need for a congestion charge, which will create as many problems as it will solve. I live in Kennington (just outside of the exclusion zone). I am sure that the ripple effect will make lives worse rather than better. How am I supposed to be happy to catch a bus, when there will be massively increased congestion just outside of the charging zone?
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