Money Box Live/Phone In: Monday 26 March 2001

THIS TRANSCRIPT IS ISSUED ON THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS TAKEN FROM A LIVE PROGRAMME AS IT WAS BROADCAST. THE NATURE OF LIVE BROADCASTING MEANS THAT NEITHER THE BBC NOR THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE PROGRAMME CAN GUARANTEE THE ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION PRINTED HERE.

Tape Transcript by JANE TEMPLE

MONEY BOX LIVE

Presenter: Vincent Duggleby

Guests: Mike MacLeod, Des Hamilton, Sarah Aitken

TRANSMISSION 26th MAR 2001 1500 - 1530 RADIO 4

ANNOUNCER : But now we're making our pennies go further here on BBC Radio 4 with MONEY BOX LIVE. Here's Vincent Duggleby

DUGGLEBY Good afternoon. We're talking about pensions on this Money Box Live and in particular the new stakeholder pension which starts on the 6th April. The number to call is 08700 100 444 The government wants everyone who can afford it to save more money towards their retirement and the idea behind the stakeholder is that it should be easy to understand and cheap to administer. Whether it's the right answer for your needs is quite another question because the new plan is being grafted on to a system which already includes the basic state pension, serps, occupational schemes for employees, retirement annuity plans, personal pensions for the self employed - which themselves come in a variety of different wrappers, so the question is how does a stakeholder affect you? - where can you get if from? How much can you put in? Is it good value for money? What's the position on transfers if you already have another pension plan up and running? What are the obligations on small employers to set up the new scheme? One important change the government's bringing in is that in future contributions will be paid net of basic rate tax although higher rate relief will still have to claimed via your tax return. In addition contributions up to £3,600 a year gross or put another way monthly payments of £234 net will no longer depend on earnings. That means women who've left work to bring up a family can still have a pension and perhaps surprisingly the children can have one too. I could go on about AVCs carried back and carry forward, compulsory annuities, the minimum income guarantee and all the other paraphernalia which surrounds pension planning but I won't because there are three very knowledgeable advisors in the studio to answer your questions: Sarah Aitken, head of stakeholders at Merrill Lynch Investment Managers, Mike MacLeod, an independent financial advisor with Everett MacLeod and Des Hamilton, technical director with the Pensions Advisory Service OPAS. We have had a lot of calls and first is Michael in Bedfordshire:

MICHAEL Hello there.

DUGGLEBY Hello Michael

MICHAEL My daughter and I are both self employed. She's a professional musician - 29 and although she teaches half a day a week otherwise she's on her own and she has absolutely no pension at all. I'm in my mid 50s - I'm wholly self employed - receiving an occupational pension from an earlier employment but I'm not currently paying into anything else so my question is really - is there any top limit at all - I heard you say in the introduction that it doesn't have to be related to earnings - is there any top limit at all that - to what you can pay into the scheme and secondly, where do I go to get the best deal?

DUGGLEBY Well let's first of all establish basics with Mike MacLeod. First of all these two can contribute?

MACLEOD Yes - basically you can contribute

DUGGLEBY Stakeholder is okay for you and the argument for stakeholder Sarah is it's cheap and easy?

AITKEN Cheap, easy and transparent.

DUGGLEBY Okay - now limits gentleman - ladies and gentlemen - who's going to take the limits for these things - Des?

HAMILTON The limit is £3600 or if greater the limit or percentage of your earnings related to your age - in other words up to age 35 the maximum is 17.5% of your earnings from 36 - 45 it is 20% and so on increases with your age. So if that percentage times your earnings produces a higher figure then it's the higher figure that applies - the greater of those two.

DUGGLEBY Right - so Michael, you can both contribute but you will be able to contribute more than your daughter because she's younger than you okay? - depending on your earnings - have you any idea what her earnings are?

MICHAEL Well I think they're relatively on the low side - I haven't got an exact figure so I don't know. It maybe that she can't afford more than £3600 anyway.

DUGGLEBY Right well I mean the point is here Mike is that - is that you -Michael and Michael - I'm right in saying that Michael of course can contribute to his daughter's pension up to the maximum?

MACLEOD Absolutely - that's one of the great new avenues around this relationship. You can actually contribute for somebody else and if you have the funds available Michael you can contribute for your daughter up to her limit.

DUGGLEBY So let's say I mean if you were earning 60 or £70,000 Michael than you're not constrained by the £3600 limit

MICHAEL What's the percentage limit for my age - I'm in my mid 50s?

DUGGLEBY 35% I think - it goes up to 40 but I think you're 35 - from 55 to 60 you're on 35% of earnings.

MACLEOD Remember it's your age at the first day of the tax year

MICHAEL Understood

DUGGLEBY But you can as we say contribute up to £3600 to your daughter's pension and it doesn't matter how much she earns.

MICHAEL Ah she can pay some of it herself

DUGGLEBY I can see some fathers in this world being leaned upon for quite a large amount of money. Right now next question - it's Paul I think in Galashields:

PAUL Yes good afternoon. As a matter of fact I think you've probably just answered my question. I'm retired and my son in his 30s has a job which doesn't pay very well. He maybe offered a stakeholder pension but he says that he cannot afford to save for a pension.

DUGGLEBY Can I stop you there a moment - is he - he's employed is he?

PAUL He's employed yes

DUGGLEBY With a - with a firm and you say that they're thinking of offering a stakeholder?

PAUL Well he assumes that they will offer him a pension but he says he cannot afford to save for a pension.

DUGGLEBY Well let me just pause there because I want to bring in Sarah to answer this question about what firms are required to do?

AITKEN The key question really to answer is whether or not the firm employs more than 5 people or not, and that's going to be the key threshold to look at. If they do they may need to do something about stakeholder if they don't already offer people pensions.

DUGGLEBY Right so does he work for a firm with more than 5 employees?

PAUL Yes he does and I think he may well be offered a pension but really my question is can I invest on his behalf and if the answer's yes what are the pros and cons?

DUGGLEBY This is going to get a little complicated, so I want to still stick with what his firm has to do - Des, the firm is obliged by law to offer the pension system?

HAMILTON Yes, what they have to do is provide what's called employee access - in other words they have to designate a scheme i.e. employer has to consult with employees as to the choice of a suitable scheme but at the end of the day the employer is the one who actually has to make the choice. Once they have made the choice of the suitable scheme then they have to make reasonable access by the scheme provider to the employees and provide relevant information. They must also set up a system whereby the contributions paid by employees will be deducted from their pay and passed over to the pension provider if the employees so choose.

DUGGLEBY Right so the point about that Paul is if your son decides he doesn't want to have anything to do with the firm's scheme - let's get it clear that the firm has to provide one. Now then I can turn to Mike and say that given that this young man may or may not want to join the scheme - he doesn't have to does he?

MACLEOD No he doesn't have to do it. It's entirely in his control but it sounds like Paul that your son does want to begin building it up and he wants you pay for it.

DUGGLEBY Now if you do that

PAUL He hasn't taken the initiative - it's me.

DUGGLEBY If you do that then in that case you will be having a stakeholder but clearly you as the father Mike wouldn't be able to pay into the firm's pension scheme so the son has to sort of opt out - the father pays the contributions direct into a stakeholder run by people like you?

MACLEOD Yes the term opt out always sends a chill down a financial advisor's back because you 'd only be opting out really if the employer was making a contribution. In any situation I would always accept free money first then Paul you would be able to add to a second or separate stakeholder plan which he - your son ran and you would just be the man paying it.

PAUL But could he use the firm's stakeholder pension - make a very minimal contribution and I myself pay into it as well?

MACLEOD No the situation I believe is that you would have to have your son make those payments and then you'd have a form of reimbursement

DUGGLEBY There is however one additional point - I don't know whether you can answer this one Des and that is that if you are in an occupational scheme of some sort it doesn't bar you from having a stakeholder?

HAMILTON No there are rules called concurrency rules which will allow you to be simultaneously both in an occupational scheme and in a stakeholder scheme and the main rule there is that your earnings have been below £30,000 since the first year which stakeholders come into being is the year 2001 to 2002 - that means it's the year 2000 - 2001 your earnings have been below £30,000 and you can make contributions.

DUGGLEBY Yes, that's something which is completely new because normally up to now we've accepted that if you're in any form of occupational scheme then you're barred from what was previously personal pensions but that bar no longer exists but as Des says subject to this limit on income. I don't know whether you can understand that - but can you give me an idea Mike of somebody who might be in a position where it would be in their interests to take a stakeholder on top of their occupational scheme?

MACLEOD Well anyone who has the funds because the best time to buy something is when you've got the money and who feels that their retirement income is insufficient.

DUGGLEBY So we're looking perhaps at a typical occupational scheme - it might charge you Sarah say 6/7% of your earnings so it gives you a sort of window which you can use up to 15%?

AITKEN Absolutely and I think the only thing I might have added on that is that the one benefit of a stakeholder pension is that you can actually take cash out at the end of it and you can't do that with additional voluntary contributions.

DUGGLEBY Which is the alternative.

MACLEOD And if I may just pick you up on the point - the 15% rule does not apply if you're taking a concurrent stakeholder.

DUGGLEBY Ah right - it only applies to the occupational?

MACLEOD It only applies to the occupational scheme rules and this is one of those opportunities to have something alongside so in the ludicrous extreme where you are very well off you can have 15% going into your employer's contribution plus up to £3600

DUGGLEBY I see yes of course cos you can - you're allowed to use the stakeholder limits.

MACLEOD If you're very well off you would be below the £30,000 limit

DUGGLEBY No the £30,000 limit on salary would ? Right let's move on to our caller - or back to our callers and say Jackie now in Yeovil your call?

JACKIE Hello. I'm 59 next birthday which is only next month. Is it too late for me to take out a stakeholder pension?

DUGGLEBY Er - Des?

HAMILTON I think we would be firm believers of the principle that it's never too late. You can contribute to a stakeholder pension right the way up to age 75. A quarter of everything that you receive including investment return is returnable to you tax free -only the balance must be - would be used to provide you with an on going income, so I think by and large the general advice would be it's never too late.

DUGGLEBY Yeah the answer is yes but I suspect Mike it's with a few qualifications?

MACLEOD Yes I mean I'm afraid as a financial advisor always try and take in personal circumstances. The major considerations are what you can do with the funds at the end when you're forced to take the benefits. 25% of it can be taken back as cash. The balance has to be purchasing an annuity, so it really is if you're Jackie - if you're looking for income in retirement there are some things which you can do.

DUGGLEBY So tax - tax efficiency on the contributions Jackie - assuming you've got the money to do it - have you?

JACKIE Yes

DUGGLEBY Right, you've got the money to do it so it's tax efficient on the way in, but remember you do lose control of the capital or most of it. And that is a - you possibly ought to just think of other alternatives like the individual savings account which doesn't have any constraints. I mean for example God forbid you die young but annuities which you have to purchase with pension funds are not much good if you die young.

MACLEOD There are circumstances where it really is useful. I mean if you've got 2800 lying in a building society which you're relying on for income and can convert that into £3600.

DUGGLEBY Sarah?

AITKEN I just think you want to also just work out how much you're going to put in because although you can contribute a minimum of £20 to stakeholder, at 58 you want to put in a reasonable amount and see what - absolutely

DUGGLEBY Such a tiny fund it isn't worthwhile so - I mean how long would you think you'd contribute for Jackie?

JACKIE Well I haven't - I was phoning because I hadn't even considered about starting it - I just didn't know if it was worthwhile at all.

DUGGLEBY Well I mean theoretically it is but I would remain to be absolutely convinced that someone in your position was suitable. I mean the best thing is to go and have a quick word with a financial advisor and check out your total income position - that includes your state pension, any additional pensions you've got , all your savings - see what your income position is, see what your living costs are going to be, have a sort of stab at what sort of standard of living you're going to require in retirement and then with caution - you can do it but don't rush into it.

JACKIE Yes it doesn't sound very promising but thank you for your advice.

DUGGLEBY Well it's a bit difficult. At 58 I would think - I don't know whether you agree - would you agree the balance of that is possibly against Mike?

MACLEOD Well I think this is one of those situations where if you're after income and I have to stress income, and you don't mind losing the access to capital that you can make a great return compared to putting it on deposit because that is one of the things you're looking for. You're looking for say 10% after tax.

DUGGLEBY As long as the sums are big enough Sarah?

AITKEN Yeah and if you have access to an Internet and can go and look at the FSA's site, they've got some tables on there that just show you what your money might have grown to by the time you retire and I think that's worth looking at.

JACKIE I do have access and I will have a look - thank you very much for your help.

DUGGLEBY Thanks for the call. And now we have Tina I think in Ascot?

TINA Yes hello. I work part time in the police force - I've been having an occupational pension scheme. I went part time 3 years ago and have been topping up with AVCs since then. It's through Equitable Life unfortunately. Would I be better off in cancelling my AVCs and going for the stakeholder pension?

DUGGLEBY Well we'll deal with the specific AVC and Equitable Life - Mike - Equitable Life have a very big slice of the AVC market. I mean on the basis of your own clients are you actually telling them not to pay anymore in?

MACLEOD If they're with paying into with profits then yes I am telling them. One of the nice things that is still with Equitable Life is that the charges are relatively low so making - there's a great degree of flexibility in stopping and starting.

DUGGLEBY Because Equitable can't offer a stakeholder because it's a new product and they no longer writing

MACLEOD Absolutely

DUGGLEBY So that's - Equitable can't do it but okay stakeholder versus AVC - who wants to have a go at that? - Sarah?

AITKEN Just one comment I would actually make is that I think when you're looking at AVCs you do want to take a look at any special circumstances in your scheme. Sometimes AVCs can have special conversion - rights attached if you like at the end - at the end of your contribution - you accumulation period. So you would want to sort of check that out too.

DUGGLEBY But if you're going to carry on contributing then obviously look at the rules but let's take somebody new to the game saying I've been told by my firm I can do AVCs but I'm also told I can do stakeholders - how do you judge that Mike?

MACLEOD Well I think that's becoming a much simpler situation now. Under the £30,000 a year situation and Tina seems to be in that situation, to me is a very simple stakeholder question because I think that anybody who's putting money aside and looking at retirement would quite like a lump sum at the end of it and the stakeholder allows you to get access to 25% of the fund tax free at the present moment and in cash.

DUGGLEBY Yes Des?

HAMILTON One alternative that Tina should be aware of is that within this scheme that she's already in - police scheme, public sector scheme - she will have the alternative of added years - buying added years and buying added years also gives her the ability to have part of the benefits as a lump sum the same way as stakeholders.

DUGGLEBY Is that available to you Tina?

TINA Yes I think it is yeah

DUGGLEBY So the added years usually - I think the usual recommendation is to go for added years before AVCs but in case of stakeholder versus AVCs as we've said the stakeholder has a little bit more going for it in terms of flexibility if for any reason you can't contribute to the added years or you've contributed the maximum. The other thing is of course is the stakeholder as we've said earlier can be contributed, although your earnings aren't that high, the limit still applies - it's still up to the £3600 and your husband, partner whatever could contribute for you if you can't afford it.

TINA Excellent - that's great, thank you very much.

DUGGLEBY Okay. Right now then - David in Wakefield.

DAVID I want to find out how it's best to - which stakeholder's best for me to contribute in my circumstances. I'm a bit like Tina - I'm a public sector worker. I'll have fully funded in my occupational pension so I want to find out where I get the best value for money in the stakeholder?

DUGGLEBY Right - so you're - you say you're fully funded - that you're paying the maximum contributions that you can?

DAVID yes

DUGGLEBY Earnings under £30,000?

DAVID Yes

DUGGLEBY Okay - Mike?

MACLEOD Hi David - this is one of the nightmare questions. Basically there's a fair numbers of factors that go into it - making up the best plan I think is something in hindsight the one that's giving you the largest pot at the end and that's made up out of the charges applied, the performance that's gained on the investment, and those things are very difficult to work out. Most people are looking at the charging as the - as the clearly identifiable thing along with a strong, large company that's likely to be there when you need them.

DUGGLEBY I think Sarah there are - there are - is it about 20 or so providers at the moment?

AITKEN Nearly 40

DUGGLEBY Nearly - oh it's nearly 40 right - but we're told that they won't necessarily all stay the course?

AITKEN Yes I think that - that's sort of the general view is that there probably isn't room for more than about 10 at the end of the day. I mean this is obviously a big decision and I think the way you go about is the way you go about any big decision - you probably get the phone numbers of three or four companies. You give them a call. You ask for their literature and you read through it and see if it makes sense to you and if you can make sense of the choice you're being given I think if I were you that's certainly what I would do.

DUGGLEBY But one of the key things of course is it does have this so called Cat mark on it - it is required to meet minimum levels of service and maximum level of charges and that sort of thing isn't it? - so you can't - is it sort of - I mean I know it's a difficult thing to say, but you can't be ripped off by a stakeholder can you?

AITKEN Frankly it's a fantastic product. I mean it's consumer dream land because you don't pay more than 1% - what you see is what you get. You can stop and start, contribute as little as £20. I mean it's all in your favour, so you can't go wrong. All that can go wrong is that we don't actually tell you enough about it that you get on and do it.

DUGGLEBY Okay right. We'll try now Malcolm - sorry to keep you waiting for such a long time in Willem - hello Malcolm? - hello Malcolm are you there?

MALCOM Yeah

DUGGLEBY Sorry to keep you waiting so long

MALCOLM Okay my question's about what you get when you come to retire and take the money - is there any improvement over personal pensions?

DUGGLEBY Des?

HAMILTON No it's more or less the same rules that apply to personal pension will apply to stakeholders. You will have the ability to take a quarter of what you've accumulated, what you've saved as a lump sum tax free, and the balance must be used to provide you with an on going income. Now that income can take the form of what's known as income draw down as with personal pensions but at the moment the rules will require you to buy an annuity by no later than aged 75.

DUGGLEBY Okay. Yeah but we're always crossing our fingers that those rules will ultimately be relaxed at some stage in the next few years. The government hasn't brought forward any proposals but I think just briefly the industry Mike has been pretty vocal in saying something's gotta be done hasn't it?

MACLEOD Yes we're very poor in the annuity rates at the moment. The industry does want something to change. People are also looking at the fact that this large perhaps say £100,000 fund which was sitting there available for their dependents if they died before withdrawing on it - suddenly goes into the hands of an insurance company after they've taken it into the form of an annuity. So there are a few things being looked at. Still no clear cut leading ideas.

DUGGLEBY Right - Sally now in Dover

SALLY Oh hello to you

DUGGLEBY Hello

SALLY Hello. I work for a small firm and my boss says that she's not legally bound to set up a stakeholder pension scheme. I wonder if you could help me out on what criteria is necessary?

DUGGLEBY I'm sure Sarah Aitken will do that for you?

AITKEN It - I mean really going back to sort of an earlier question I guess one of the first key questions to ask is how many people are employed in the company?

SALLY 4 full time and 3 part time.

AITKEN And then the question is going to be if those part time people are employed on contracts that are more than 3 months in length?

SALLY No I don't think so. I mean they're regular people - sort of Saturday people.

AITKEN I have this sneaking suspicion that your boss does actually know the situation.

DUGGLEBY Des?

HAMILTON Yes she is caught even though she maybe - she maybe thinking that of course she's only got 4 part - full timers that that keeps her below the 5 - the 5 limit. The fact that she has the other 3 even though they are not 3 people to whom she actually has to offer access to the scheme, they still take her take over the 5 limit which makes her have to offer to the remaining 4. So she does have to provide employer access for the remaining 4 people.

SALLY I see right.

DUGGLEBY So what's the position then if somebody - if a firm does not offer a scheme who is legally obliged to do it? - what - what's the position then for somebody who finds themselves

HAMILTON The employee can complain to the occupational pensions regulatory authority - OPRA who have the task of policing the requirement of employers to provide employees with access.

DUGGLEBY Cos I was thinking of somebody like Sally you see might be listening and they just don't know whether their firm - the boss says no no I don't have to do it, but they're not sure whether they're right.

HAMILTON But unfortunately OPRAs remit is a reactive one - it's not a proactive one. They will not be going out searching out employers who are not doing what they ought to do, so it's going to be encumbant upon employees to tell OPRA if their employer is falling down. If any employees are not sure whether or not the employer is - has to provide employer access or employee access they could access the OPRA website which has an interactive decision tree which helps to decide whether or not employer access is something that has to be provided.

DUGGLEBY But we do stress that it's not that easy to define what a - I think it's called a relevant employee is - I'm sure you're all relevant employees but for the purposes of this stakeholder some are more relevant than others. I can tell you that all these details of these organisations which are being mentioned by my panel here are on the BBC website and I'll give you that at the end of the programme together with out action line number. Now we have John in Manchester:

JOHN Vincent, good afternoon to you

DUGGLEBY Good afternoon

JOHN My question relates to carry back, carry forward provisions in relation to stakeholder. Situation is we're in discussions with the company I work for with a large insurance company which states that it's not introducing stakeholder until the 6th April of this year. The problem is of course that the government is abolishing carry forward. How do those inter relate and are there any problems actually contributing by way of carry back next year on the 6th April into a stakeholder plan that is cost effective?

DUGGLEBY Okay well there are one or two tricks to the trade here - Mike?

MACLEOD Yes, basically the decision this financial year is urgent only for contributions that you missed in the tax year 93/94 because it's only that one which cannot be reached if you make a payment next year because you've got a window up until the 31st January 2002 to apply for a carry back and a carry forward from the tax year 94/95.

DUGGLEBY So that's the first thing - you've got a 9 month or just under 9 months of leeway on this one. I think the point is John again correct me if I'm wrong Des, the stakeholder of course starts and what you can't do is if you say have no earnings you can't suddenly decide to pay a contribution and carry it back because it doesn't work like that. I mean it's a once and for all start. We shouldn't confuse people who already have personal pensions and things that the rules are suddenly clamped down - is that right?

HAMILTON Well a lot of the changes in the rules that are being introduced by stakeholders do actually apply to personal pensions, so if you're in personal pensions then yes the rules on carry back, carry forward have all now changed as have a number of other rules such as the rules on the provision of death benefits premium waiver and so on - these have all changed. All these changes whilst they've been brought in for stakeholders equally apply to personal pensions.

DUGGLEBY Sure but can you for example - if you're - if you're say a married woman who leaves work early in the next year Mike - you've got some earnings for this past year but you haven't got any earnings next year. You wanna take out a stakeholder. Now the stakeholder rules apply and you can simply pay £3600, but it's not a question of actually carrying it back to the previous year is it?

MACLEOD No it's not

DUGGLEBY Stakeholders didn't exist prior to the 6th April.

MACLEOD Effectively it's base year for which you can make contributions for the next 5 years, and if that was underneath the - the amount where you would do it by relation to your age and salary you can continue to pay up to £3600 without any current earnings in that year.

DUGGLEBY So John are you clear about that? - that you can carry on doing this for a limited period? I think he's gone, so we'll move on to who's next, let me see - Ronald I think it is in Oxted?

RONALD Hello

DUGGLEBY Hello Ronald

RONALD Good afternoon. I understand from a newsheet issued by my independent financial advisor that people up to the age of 75 already retired and receiving a pension can invest in a stakeholder plan to give tax free cash. Now can you explain how this works please?

DUGGLEBY Des?

HAMILTON Yes, one of the key changes that's coming about with effect from the 6th April is that there's not going to be a requirement to have earnings in order to be able to make a pension payment, so when someone who's in your case who's drawing a pension who's not making earnings then you can still make contributions to either a stakeholder or to a personal pension plan.

DUGGLEBY It's simply not earnings related anymore Ronald. That's the key to it. It's not earnings related but whether it's a good thing or not - Michael?

MACLEOD Oh I think it's - depending on the circumstances an excellent thing. One can also make decisions around the age allowance because there are thresholds there where you might want to reduce your income and make contributions to make your overall income more efficient.

DUGGLEBY We're back to this point Sarah if you've got spare income it's a pretty good product to put it in?

AITKEN It is as good as it seems. It does what it says on the package.

DUGGLEBY Indeed. Now then Michael in Malden:

MICHAEL Hello - yes I have a question regarding a child who benefits from having a stakeholder pension opened for that child. Supposing that contributions are made say amounting to a total of £30,000 input before the child is 18, and then tragically before the scheme actually matures at aged 50 that person died. What would happen to the fund?

DUGGLEBY Right - I'll put that to Mike MacLeod?

MACLEOD It would be basically returned based on the nomination form put in to the provider, so the person taking the plan out on behalf of the under aged person would write to whom that fund should be paid.

DUGGLEBY That Sarah is because all providers of pension plans have the discretion as trustees to pay the funds out if the person doesn't live to draw the pension?

AITKEN Absolutely

DUGGLEBY And that applies to any pension I think doesn't it - no matter what it is?

AITKEN Absolutely right.

DUGGLEBY Okay well thank you very much all three of you - Sarah Aitken from Merrill Lynch, Mike MacLeod from Everett MacLeod and Des Hamilton who's technical director with the Pensions Advisory Service OPAS. Now we've given you out a lot of details and names and things - so you can find out more about these by ringing the Action Line on 0800 044 044 or by logging into the Money Box website at bbc.co,.uk/moneybox. And that'll have details of the other websites that are aimed at helping you decide whether stakeholder is right for you. Don't forget to join Paul Lewis for MONEY BOX at noon on Saturday. Paul will also be in this chair taking your calls on MONEY BOX LIVE next week. I'll be back in the not too distant future.

BACK ANNO That was Vincent Duggleby and the producer was Jennifer Clarke.