Heads Down in Larne

This is the transcript of the Spotlight programme entitled Heads Down in Larne, which was broadcast on 20 February 2001. The reporter is Seamus Boyd.

Reporter : This town could, perhaps, have been a model for Northern Ireland society as a whole. Mixed marriages are commonplace, Catholics and Protestants live side by side.

There are no no-go areas for the police, yet Larne is, for some, a by-word for sectarianism, and in recent months tensions have heightened.

Neighbour has turned against neighbour and homes have become fortresses against attack.

Danny O'Connor is the local SDLP representative at Stormont.

He operates under a loyalist death threat and the acute knowledge that 20 years ago Larne's last leading nationalist, John Turnley, was murdered for his views.

He has raised the issue of attacks against Catholics in Larne with senior politicians in Dublin, London and even President Clinton.

Danny O'Connor MLA (SDLP): There have been a number of families attacked, innocent families and families of both religions who feel their world has been turned upside down by the actions of, in some cases, mindless thugs.

But in other cases, an orchestrated campaign by the UDA to drive them out of the town.

Reporter: Just weeks ago, the then Secretary of State, Peter Mandelson, visited the town. He met victims of sectarian violence and had strong opinions on what was happening there.

Peter Mandelson (speaking after talking to residents in Larne on 17 January 2001):

I have met families and victims this morning who have a real fear of the situation.

Reporter: Larne and loyalism have been inextricably linked for generations; from the Clyde Valley bringing in guns for the UVF 90 years ago, to the workers' strike of 1974 when power-sharing was a step too far.

Reporter's voice on archive report of UWC strike 1974 : The organisers claim it is the largest loyalist parade Larne has ever seen. The strike committee, who've taken it upon themselves to run Larne, often meet in the local UDA drinking club.

Member of UWC Committee at news conference: We have had an encouraging meeting with the traders. We had no-one complained from any of the traders when we told them.

Reporter on UWC film: Among the most influential are Councillor James McKee, Dr Paisley's right hand man in Larne.

His brother Bob McKee or "Boots" McKee as he is known locally, a Lieutenant Colonel in the UVF.

Spotlight Reporter: Today, Councillor Jack McKee is still a central figure in Larne.

Jack McKee (DUP): We've had 30 years of murder, death and destruction - and I believe that people now see that violence has paid.

We see gunmen and bombers in government and I think the Protestant community - the young loyalists - are saying: "If they can get away with it, then it's our turn".

Reporter: The town's MP is Roy Beggs, who also answered the loyalist call in Larne in 1995 when he obstructed police and traffic on a main road.

He was fined £650 for the offence.

Roy Beggs MP (Archive footage from 1995): There was no confrontation. There was no damage to property. As you can see even those who have been inconvenienced for nearly eight hours have given a good farewell.

Reporter: For Roy Beggs, Drumcree was a simple case of Protestant rights, but he views the problems of Larne today as more complex.

Roy Beggs: In reality, there have been attacks on the Roman Catholic community from those who call themselves loyalists. There have also been attacks on the Roman Catholic community from those within the Roman Catholic community who seek to have control of that area.

In the loyalist community there again, some calling themselves loyalists have been attacking both Protestant families, and indeed isolated Roman Catholic families, so it's a very complex and a very difficult issue.

Reporter: For some of the town's residents little has changed in generations and the phrase of the past "keep your head as low as a Larne Catholic" is as relevant today.

Danny O'Connor We've come down into the Antiville estate. This used to be a very, very mixed estate, but there've been a huge number of Catholic families put out of this estate over the past four or five years.

You can see again the Antiville young militants, UFF marking out their territory around the shops.

This is Sallagh Park. Normally, a quiet residential area. In other towns, estates like this would be an attractive place to live.

Reporter: But James Gribben and his partner Louise, no longer see the attraction. Their home was attacked with nail bomb, petrol bomb, and crossbow and they've now left Larne.

James Gribben: I was just about to go to bed, when I heard bangs at the front window, the porch window, so I looked out and I seen three masked men.

I ran in to the living room and phoned the police. And I run back out to see if they were still there. The next thing was a big loud bang and a lot of smoke, which I thought was a bomb.

Reporter: With a young son of their own, the death of the Quinn children in Ballymoney was never far from their thoughts.

Louise Burns (Partner of James Gribben): We could have had two funerals if the petrol bomb had gone off through the bedroom window. He was in bed. We wouldn't have got to him if they'd been successful on the second attempt when they came with murder in their mind - well minds, if they had minds.

But that's what they had in their heads and I could have been sitting here today, with no son, no partner and that just doesn't bear thinking about.

Reporter: There were 76 reported sectarian attacks in Larne last year. The RUC says 53 of those attacks were against Catholic families, and 35 against Protestant. The chief constable is very clear who is behind the loyalist violence.

Sir Ronnie Flanagan (RUC Chief Constable): I have no doubt that members of the UDA have been involved. Of that I have no doubt, but the suggestion it's centrally directed and controlled by that organisation would, I think, be a misrepresentation.

That organisation itself could be described as lacking that sort of central direction and control.

Reporter: Superintendent Karen Kennedy has policed the area for the last two years. She too believes the UDA is guilty but she also puts another organisation in the frame.

Superintendent Karen Kennedy (RUC): The majority of the attacks appear to have been against the Catholic community and I think we would have to look at the two main loyalist paramilitary groupings in Larne - obviously the UDA and UVF.

Danny O'Connor : I believe that there has been an orchestrated campaign by the UDA or elements within the UDA to drive Catholic people out of Larne.

That said, there have been attacks against Protestants but I don't think that it would be organised by the IRA or any other organisation. It's just a lot of thugs that's doing it and all it does is it leads to further retaliation against innocent people, so there can be no justification for it whatsoever.

Reporter: Both the UDA and the UVF deny they've taken part in the attacks in Larne and throughout Northern Ireland. In a statement released last week the UDA said the attacks should stop. It was a statement viewed by many with deep scepticism.

So, after almost 50 pipe bombings across Northern Ireland this year, who is sanctioning the sectarianism? Spotlight invited the political leaders of loyalism to Larne.

David Ervine MLA (PUP): I think it's much too simplistic to blame the UDA. I think it's fairly evident that many of those people in the UDA are not involved in any of this. I think that you can't deny that there are other groups involved.

But the reality is that these people who're operating simply on their own agenda to be a destructive force offering absolutely no alternative at all, are destroying the opportunities that the people of this society thought, one, they'd never have and two were delighted when they got the opportunity.

These people are trying to take it away from us.

Reporter: Gary McMichael was a key figure in achieving the UDA ceasefire and subsequent support for the Good Friday Agreement. But since then, support for his political analysis has declined considerably.

Gary McMichael (UDP leader): I don't think that the finger can be pointed in a single direction. At the same time, I am not here to try and provide political cover or excuses for anybody who is involved in this kind of activity. I don't see where it can lead or serve any purpose for unionism or loyalism. And I don't think it should be taking place.

Reporter: This is Willie Cameron, one of the new leaders of loyalism. The UDP in east Antrim have broken away from the party, in opposition to the Good Friday Agreement. They deny the UDA are behind any attacks.

Willie Cameron (UDP): Yes the finger has been pointed, which is wrongly pointed, and maybe in the next few weeks, with the operations that the RUC are planning to throw up to stop these pipe bombing attacks, maybe they will be able to do their job and then decide where it is actually coming from, with hard evidence.

The law of the land says that you are innocent until proven guilty, but because we go against the Agreement, we are being classed as guilty.

Gary McMichael: The fact is that the UDP has no representation in Larne or in the south east Antrim area, any longer because those within the party have opposed the Agreement, and decided to go a different direction. And therefore a lot of people come to my door, about what's going on in Larne.

But there is nothing I can do about it.

Reporter: James Gribben says he left Larne because he lost faith in politicians to be able to solve the town's problems. So we invited him to put his views to David Ervine.

James Gribben (in conversation with David Ervine): Do you think that there is a concerted campaign to drive Catholics out of Larne?

David Ervine: Well, I think that it's having that effect, whether it's a concerted campaign, hard to tell. Yes, I think, pipe bombs don't grow on trees and they're being manufactured, not just manufactured around Larne, they are being manufactured in various other parts of Northern Ireland as well and are being used, and they don't happen by accident.

Yes, I think there are elements who are determined to use the opportunity in attacking Catholics to destabilise Northern Ireland.

The perception of Larne is often that of a solidly Protestant, unionist town. But in fact Catholics make up almost a quarter of the population.

Bizarrely, the prevalence of intermarriage and Catholics and Protestants living side by side, has led to a situation where there is evidence of Catholics being involved in loyalist paramilitary organisations.

One Catholic man is currently facing charges relating to the UDA murder of a UVF man.

Danny O'Connor : I've heard those stories as well that there could be as many as eight or ten young Catholics involved in the UDA and its junior wing of the UYM. I don't know why anybody would want to become involved in terrorism of any description.

It's something beyond my own comprehension. It may be to do with drugs, it may be to do with money, it may be to do with the fact that they themselves feel intimidated and that if you can't beat them, join them.

Martin Wilson (SDLP): Most of the ones who are involved, and as I say, there are not that many, but most of ones that are involved come from mixed marriages and some of them from single parent families and I wouldn't say they are Mass-going Catholics or anything.

Reporter: In different circumstances, this location would be the stuff of estate agents' dreams. Modern homes on cliff top sites offering views as far as Scotland, but instead 75 of these houses are vacant, many of them derelict and the Seacourt Estate has become synomonous with sectarianism and bitterness.

John and Adele Shaw have lived here since 1995. They've devoted time and money on their family and their home but in the past five years their lives have been ruined by sectarian abuse, assault, bullets and bombs.

John Shaw fought (boxed) for Northern Ireland in the 1982 Commonwealth Games, winning a bronze medal, but he and his family have experienced far more danger outside the ring.

Last October, he was collecting fish bait with two friends when a booby-trap bomb meant for him was triggered instead by his friend. Thomas Baxter suffered severe injuries and subsequently lost a leg.

John Shaw (describing the bomb attack): In there you see, the bomb went off in this corner. I was in some pain there, you see.

Reporter: The first serious attack on the family was four years ago when a bomb, attached to their van, exploded. John, Adele and their baby daughter, who were all in the van, were lucky to escape with only minor physical injuries.

But it marked the start of a catalogue of sectarian attacks and intimidation that still continues and has taken its toll on the entire family.

Adele Shaw (wife of John Shaw): I've an 11-year-old kid who does not even leave the estate. He's got other family in Creggy Hill - if he does go up he sits in their house. He was a happy child but now he just wants to stay indoors. He just wants to be around us. He's having nightmares.

The two girls, Shauna Rose especially, she's younger, she has minor effects but Shauna Rose has basically been wakening out of her sleep, peeing herself in hysterics, crying in hysterics.

When I go into the room to her she does not recognise me for a few seconds because she thinks these bad boys have come into the house to shoot their daddy.

Reporter: The majority of attacks in recent months have occurred in the Seacourt Estate and both Catholics and Protestants have been targeted.

Danny O'Connor : There is an attempt by some to create a chill factor for Protestants in Seacourt and I would totally condemn that .

Supt Karen Kennedy: Some of the sectarian incidents have been against Protestants. So the level of sectarianism is not against simply one side of the community. It is against both sides of the community.

Reporter: The DUP claims Protestants are increasingly unwelcome in Seacourt.

Jack McKee: There is a campaign by republicans in the Seacourt area to drive Protestants out of their homes. We have had up to 50 Protestant families in the Seacourt area put out of their homes over the past two years.

I believe that there is also a campaign by some young loyalists of retaliating to that violence, and I believe we see it played out in the streets of Larne and different parts of Northern Ireland every night, and its going to go on until some person gets killed and I'm asking for it to stop.

Supt Karen Kennedy : I don't have any evidence that would suggest that there is an organised republican grouping here in Larne carrying out any of those sort of attacks.

Reporter: Spotlight has established that in total, 13 families have been forced out of Seacourt.

Ironically, the root of the trouble in Seacourt stems from fall-out of attempts to forge a genuine cross-community spirit. One of the key figures involved was Anne Carson.

She describes herself as a loyalist and says her troubles started last summer when she objected to youths erecting tricolours outside her home after a local agreement that no flags would be flown in the estate.

She retaliated by flaunting a Union Flag. The result was she was burnt out of her home.

Anne Carson : I lost everything inside, I got out with exactly what I had on me. I lost everything. I had my daughter's wedding dress, I had my grand-daughter's, my eldest grand daughter's christening gown, that was handed down through the family. I had that, I had photographs of my mother and father - who are both dead now.

I lost all this, they are the things that tore the heart out of me - not the material goods.

Reporter: Anne left her Seacourt home for the mainly loyalist Antiville Estate across town, ironically the estate from which her close friend Geraldine McClean had been intimidated out of because she is a Catholic.

Geraldine McClean: I've suffered from intimidation all my life, from being called a fenian this and that and another thing, and then I moved away from here for four years.

I came back, and I moved into a friend's house, down here and it started with stones being thrown through my windows front and back, called names morning, noon and night.

Bricks fired at my doors, standing outside playing flutes, Orange songs, drums, you name it. Bricks every night of the week. Then eventually the police came up and said: "If you don't move they're going to petrol bomb you". I said I'm not moving.

So I sat it out for about six months, and in the end I had to move - because I had to think of my children and the family and also still live here.

Reporter: Geraldine now lives in Seacourt, but there too has suffered intimidation, this time because of her relationship with her loyalist friend, Anne.

This is Bertie Shaw, a cousin of John and Adele Shaw. He's charged with two attempted murders and under the conditions of his bail, is prevented from entering his home town.

He maintains he's a victim of prejudice and harassment.

Bertie Shaw: Apart from recent weeks, it hasn't just been going on this 30 odd years, and because I stick my head above the pulpit I've become a hate figure for the loyalist bigots in Larne.

Reporter: Two years ago, flammable liquid, started a fire in the kitchen of his Seacourt home. With the help of police he was able to extinguish it. But three months later he and his partner were charged with arson - accused of setting fire to their own house.

The forensic report concluded that the presence of glass outside the window indicated that it had been broken from the inside and this led police to believe that the occupants had started the fire themselves.

However, a separate forensic report commissioned by the defence had a markedly different conclusion. It said the glass outside could be explained by an explosion in the kitchen.

After 18 months on bail, the case went to court, but the Crown offered no evidence and the judge directed a not guilty verdict .

The arson charge is one of six, none of which has led to a conviction. His solicitor is concerned.

Paul Farrell (Solicitor): Since I have had dealings with him which is approximately five or six years ago he has been continually on remand in respect of various allegations of criminal behaviour with the exception of a number of months.

During that time the police have kept a constant observation on him and his whereabouts and his movements and in fact when each case reached the trial stage, either he was acquitted at the direction of the judge or the Crown offered no evidence.

Reporter: Eight years ago, Bertie Shaw's father was murdered by the UFF who claimed he was a member of Sinn Fein, a claim rejected by both his family and the RUC. And he himself has had his house burned, pipe bombed, and he's been assaulted, shot, and stabbed.

Bertie Shaw: I am a Catholic living in Larne. And I choose, you know, to defend my rights, and this is a thing that is not liked among the loyalist people in Larne.

When something happens to me I go to the papers and I go to the TV to highlight the problem in Larne and I have been asked before, by the police and local people not to bother going to the press, or the TV to complain, because it only brings more trouble to the area.

Reporter: In response to these claims the RUC issued the following statement:

(Police Statement): "It would be entirely inappropriate for police to comment on criminal investigations relating to any individual in such a public forum. Anyone who has a complaint about police conduct should refer it to the Police Ombudsman for an independent investigation."

Reporter:Martin Wilson is the SDLP chairman in Larne. He received death threats after he objected to a UDA flag flying outside his house.

Martin Wilson: I came out and told them that they weren't putting it on that pole that it was offensive and I didn't want it there. There were certain threats made then about burning us out, my family, and threats to kill, which I reported to the to the RUC.

I have to say when the RUC came out to interview me I was quite amazed that the constable concerned told me that not everybody would be offended by these flags.

Reporter: Martin now lives behind bullet-proof glass and takes extra security measures at night. He felt discouraged from pressing charges against the people who threatened his life.

Martin Wilson: The night the threats were made outside my house, the policewoman who interviewed me suggested to me that the people responsible had connections and were dangerous people, and that it might mean I would have to go court and give evidence, and that by doing that there might be implications for, for my family and I was to take that into consideration.

Now other people have told me of a similar a thing. I'm not sure if it's widespread or if it happens to everybody but you know it's more a suggestion rather than actually telling you don't be pressing charges, but you know, the suggestion is there that it could be a dangerous thing to do.

Reporter: In other unconnected cases people have raised concerns about both the RUC's effectiveness and the conduct of individual officers.

Nuala O'Loan (Police Ombudsman): We have had complaints in respect of police activity around the troubles, the disturbances in Larne. We've had complaints of police officers assaulting people and complaints of harassment.

Reporter: When you say harassment, what do you mean?

Nuala O'Loan: I think in this case it's some kind of sectarian abuse by a police officer, that sort of behaviour. Now when those complaints come in to us we will investigate them, and we will investigate them absolutely fairly, looking for the facts of the cases as they can be established.

Once we've done that, if the facts themselves disclose that an officer has, for example, assaulted someone, if the evidence is there, then we will put that evidence in file with a recommendation to the Director of Public Prosecutions, that police officer be prosecuted.

Reporter: Police in Larne have in fact arrested 25 people for sectarian incidents in the past year. But, Paul Farrell feels there are occasions where some police could do more to bring about prosecutions.

Paul Farrell: What has happened is that when incidents are reported to the police, they will send a uniformed team of officers up to the house or the property that has been attacked.

They will take a note of what's happened but they are not taking complaints statements from clients and without them taking those statements there is no obligation on the police to investigate the matter.

I personally believe that with the situation as it is in Larne that the police should be doing all that they can to assist the victims of this type of harassment to proceed by due criminal process and by encouraging them to make statements of complaint which will then lead to a police investigation.

Reporter: Spotlight raised with the Police Ombudsman concerns that individuals within the nationalist community felt that some members of the police had discouraged them from bringing a prosecution.

Nuala O'Loan: I would be very concerned - if somebody has suffered what they think is a criminal act if its a pipe bomb or a threat or something like this and they go to the police, now to my mind the police should not be saying to them you know, it's not in your interest to pursue this, because I think therein lies a whole corruption of society.

Supt Karen Kennedy: I would be very disappointed if that is the case. We have continually emphasised and tried to encourage people to come forward to give us information - for the victims of these sectarian incidents to come forward and give us information.

That is a top priority. We have made appeals to the public, we have stressed that we can indeed deal with information in complete confidence.

Unfortunately, and I do have to be honest here, unfortunately there is a reluctance by the local population, the local community in Larne to come forward and give us information.

Reporter: Extra security resources have been brought in to the town and since early December the army has been deployed.

In recent weeks, this seems to have resulted in fewer serious incidents and has also led to the discovery of a pipe bomb factory.

In Seacourt, efforts are being made to soothe the confrontational combination of religion and personalities.

Inside the community centre, a Mediation Network Officer, is attempting to restore good relations.

For those who've been affected by Seacourt's violence, there's acceptance of the need to build bridges.

Anne Carson: I read in the papers the local papers and other papers that some of the councillors agree and some don't and some want to talk the different paramilitary groups.

Suppose they have to talk to these thugs, as I would call them as well, I mean I personally don't agree that they should talk to them, but, they have to talk to them, somebody has to give in somewhere.

John Shaw: If people would use the security forces in the proper way and give information in to the police it would stop all this instead of bringing this town into a sectarian town.

Reporter: But will the hopes of reconciliation ever translate into a new reality of a town safe for all?

The first steps may well be the removal of graffiti and slogans. Some of the Catholics in Seacourt want them to go because here slogans can spell trouble for the residents.

John Shaw has decided to take personal action; removing at least one flag in the hope of lessening tensions in the estate.

But among others, there's a determination that some flags are here to stay. The town council flies both the Union flag and the Ulster flag every day of the year.

The Equality Commission has advised the council that the Ulster flag is an emblem of sectarian significance and should not be flown but the MP, Roy Beggs, has accused them of bullying.

Roy Beggs: No, I think it indicates very clearly, that the people of Larne know that they are still part of the United Kingdom,

Reporter: Unionists are very proud of the town's position within the United Kingdom. Larne's tradition of loyality remains undimmed. So too unfortunately its reputation among nationalists as a place where Catholics must still keep their head low.

James Gribben: I don't think we'll ever get back in Larne. Never.

Louise Burns: It will never be home. Never be home. There is still family here, but it will never be home

Anne Carson: I would go back to Seacourt providing there was peace in Seacourt naturally, but I think mediation needs to take place here.

Geraldine McClean: They just want Antiville to be a loyalist estate for loyalists and the way it's going they just want Seacourt to be for a Catholic estate.

But how can that be when there are so many mixed marriages in Larne.

John Shaw: There's good Protestant people out there too. There's a lot of Protestant people there has come across to me and Adele and shook our hands and spoke to us and said: "Don't be leaving, stand your ground".

Adele Shaw: Basically we just want to be able to live in peace with both Catholic and Protestant communities.

Being able to take my children to the park, just being able to live side by side in a peaceful town.