Two more big money donors to the Labour Party

JEREMY VINE:
Clive Soley, it looks pretty shabby doesn't it?

CLIVE SOLEY:
Chair, Parliamentary Labour Party
I don't think it does if you take it in the round. You have to remember they gave money under the old system and it's the Labour Government that has brought the new system in. Now, remember, when I called as I did, the other day, for people to come forward voluntarily and say how much they'd given, I did that because I knew they had given money under the old system where they would be named, but they have done it under that system. I think it's fair enough. You have to give them some respect for that.

VINE:
Only on Tuesday, when Lord Hamlyn's donation was finally revealed. You were talk being about a great day for openness. You didn't mention that the party was hiding two others.

SOLEY:
We were not hiding them. I'm sure other people have said are you prepared to come forward.

VINE:
Did youknow about these two when you were talking on Tuesday?

SOLEY:
I made the assumption there were other people and I made it clear on a number of things I said, if there were other people, it would be better for everyone if they came forward and said so. There is no reason to be ashamed of giving money to any party.

VINE:
Are there any more outstanding amounts that you would like to tell us about now?

SOLEY:
No. I would say this to all political parties and this is what annoys me about the Tories not turning up, is you cannot have a system where one party bring forward all the reforms and yet criticising us for somehow or other hiding things. We have been upfront and changed the law.

VINE:
You are not being upfront, because I have asked you if there are any more big donors and you said you didn't know?

SOLEY:
No. And I wouldn't necessarily answer that.

VINE:
Why not?

SOLEY:
Because I don't want a witch hunt. I don't want a system where people get money and ask where are we going to draw the line. All MPs all three of us, give thousands of pounds a year to the party. Do we have to be named?

VINE:
When Labour brought in the new law that is coming in in February we were told it was brought in as a matter of principle?

SOLEY:
It is a principle thing.

VINE:
Why not follow it now?

SOLEY:
Because the people before gave money under the old system. They knew they would be named but they would be named in the annual report at the end of the year.

VINE:
If there is a principle you shouldn't be accepting money on that basis?

SOLEY:
No, we have set a new and higher principle and a higher standard than any of the other parties were asking us to do. I want the openness that's why I called for people to come forward, but I think that which you've had a set of laws you can't suddenly say to all those people who have turned up for something under an old law, to suddenly change it because of something you are going to do in a month or two's time.

VINE:
What do you make of the words of one of the two donors. In his own words "it's much better to be involved and make sure your money works for you ". How will his money work for him?

SOLEY:
I would hope, I didn't like the way you assume you get something for it.

VINE:
He does.

SOLEY:
If I won the lottery tomorrow I would want to give a million quid to the Labour Party and I would want it, because I want full employment and minimum wage and more money for the low income families. Maybe Lord Ondaatje wants that too.

VINE:
He's not Lord yet is he?

SOLEY:
Whether he is or he isn't¿..

VINE:
He's going to become one is he?

SOLEY:
I don't know. If you are making out that he's doing this for personal favours then you need to ask him that or know what they are. What you are doing is assuming that because someone is well off they can't have a social conscience. People round this table are relatively well off compared to many people watching. It doesn't mean we don't have a conscience or want things done, and believe by giving to apolitical party that will make things better for them, that you shouldn't do it.

VINE:
Tony Benn, for Labour to fight for what it belives in at the next election it needs some cash.

TONY BENN:
Clive did come out last week with a statement calling for the name, and I give him full credit for that. What concerns me is a rather different question. Modern politics is becoming a matter of marketing, leaders and slogans. The old idea you meet your candidate in the local election and ask questions has all gone now. It's all high pressure salesmanship and it's all very expensive. I was in the United States talking to a former governor of Ohio, and he said you will never have democracy in the United States where big business buys both the parties and then expects a payoff. Half of America didn't bother to vote in the presidential election. Every elector is entitled to know who funds the parties that might vote, and when you get your polling card, you should have a report. Every candidate should declare his interests. The elector is entitled to know the interests of candidates and no business company should be allowed to give money without a ballot of shareholders, because the answer to this is openness. That's the best disinfectant. I think we have got to go further than we have so far.

VINE:
Evan Harris.

DR EVAN HARRIS:
Liberal Democrats
The case has been made fully now for state funding of political parties. It's not just whether it buys influence, as we fear it might, but the appearance of doing so does undermine, I think, people's credibility, the credibility of the election system, and we will see turnout rates continuing to drop. A rate of £1 per person per year for tax payer funding of political parties is a be a low price to pay for probably what is the most important thing in our democracy, which is a healthy and vibrant democracy. I don't see why, simply because people think it might not be popular, people aren't suggesting that the right thing be done. That's what democracy is about.

VINE:
When did the Liberal Democrats last turn down a big donation?

HARRIS:
A large donation was turned down a few years ago because of a fear of undue influence. One is not in hock to trade union or big business vested interests. The worrying thing is, as was pointed out in your film, that people appear to give money to parties in power. They switch from parties previously in power, the Tories, to then giving money to parties in power, and that does suggest that they want the influence. I don't think that's good.

VINE:
Clive Soley, you said you were moving in the direction a few days ago of thinking state funding would be a good thing?

SOLEY:
Partly because of the perception problem, I don't take the view that people who give money is cynically wanting to get something for themselves, but certainly the perception isn't good and Tony is right that there is a problem, too, in how we fund politics. The problem I have with state funding of politics, is though it works well in continental Europe and I believe in North America, I suspect that a lot of British people wouldn't want to pay taxes in that way. One of the other suggestions we ought to look at is the possibility of having a tick off system on your tax form, where you can name a party and indicate you want to contribute a certain amount to it, and then it is done from your wages direct to that party, which gives the citizen total control over whether they give anything at all, and if so who they give it to. Maybe we ought to be looking at more adventurous systems like that, which would have some merit.

BENN:
We do have state funding. Every candidate gets one free post. That must be worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds. The party political broadcasts are provided free, whereas in America they buy time on television. But would you fund a fascist party in Britain, because once you answer that question, you come to the second question, are the people in power able to exclude new parties simply because they threaten them? I think to ask a Jew to fund a British National Party candidate through his tax system, I think, would be unfair. If you want a party to win, you have got to fork up, and that's the best way of doing it.

HARRIS:
There is a huge danger that parties in power, one party states, will because they get all the donations prevent new parties on the left or right coming forward. In a liberal society, you have got to fight these parties on the issues, not try and exclude them from the process. I say that as someone committed to anti fascism, but that is the price we pay for democracy.

VINE:
Thank you all very much indeed.