'The whole nation must show resolve'

On Sunday 16 August Huw Edwards interviewed Bob Ainsworth MP, Secretary of State for Defence

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

The Defence Secretary, Bob Ainsworth, warns: more soldiers will lose their lives in Afghanistan.

HUW EDWARDS:

Bob Ainsworth MP, Secretary of State for Defence

Well the Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth has described the number of deaths in Afghanistan as a "sad milestone", and of course his view is that people who question whether the fight is worth it are being "defeatist".

The new Head of the Army has predicted that Britain's involvement, as I was saying to John, could last for 30 to 40 years.

Is the public prepared for that?

So we're going to talk to Mr Ainsworth about all of those things.

Very good to have you with us, Mr Ainsworth.

Thanks for coming in.

BOB AINSWORTH:

Good morning, good morning.

HUW EDWARDS:

It's the big question, isn't it - is it worth it? - and John raised it again. What did you mean when you used the word 'defeatist'? It seemed to refer to anyone really who is questioning whether the high cost is worth it.

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well I agree with so much of what John's just said and the analysis that he brings to the problem in Afghanistan. My comments were made off the back of some pretty unfortunate reporting and behaviour over the summer. I don't mind scrutiny.

If the government is not doing its job in terms of supporting our armed forces, then people are entitled to look into that, they're entitled to investigate that, but they have a duty to do so accurately. Some of the reports that we've had, quite frankly, have been totally inaccurate. Sometimes no attempt has been made at accurate reporting.

HUW EDWARDS:

Where are those reports? Who's writing them?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well let me give you, let me give you one example. It was reported … Liam Fox visited a base in the Middle East and discovered that there were some Ridgeback vehicles that were there, and the whole British nation was told off the back of that that our troops were being let down; that those vehicles were badly needed in Afghanistan and that people were dying as a result of it. Those vehicles are ahead of schedule.

We haven't got trained personnel in Afghanistan for Ridgeback yet or any number of them. We didn't have the Ridgeback when 19 Brigade were doing their pre-deployment training. And those vehicles are making their way there, ready for use for the next brigade, which is due to arrive in August, who have been trained to use Ridgeback.

So the confidence of the British people and our ability to support our troops is undermined and our supply lines are exposed, our supply methodology is exposed for a cheap party political point. Now that really is a disgrace.

We have 9,000 people in theatre. The spirit of our armed forces is absolutely and completely indomitable, but everybody in the military knows that you have to have the military themselves, you have to have the government, and you have to have the nation as a whole if you're going to succeed, if you're going to prevail in an ongoing operation like this. That trinity has to be maintained. And I just want to urge people …

HUW EDWARDS:

Understood.

BOB AINSWORTH:

… this is difficult, it isn't going to be a short engagement, it's going to take time. It needs not only bravery, but it needs patience as well. And we've got to get behind our people. We've got to get behind our forces. And you know because we've lost 200 makes that even more important, not less important.

HUW EDWARDS:

Were you right to use the word 'defeatist' to refer to people who have legitimate concerns about what's going on there?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well I wasn't using the word …

HUW EDWARDS:

(over) Well you did use the word.

BOB AINSWORTH:

I wasn't using the word for people who have legitimate concerns. We live in a democracy and we should be subject to scrutiny. I want that scrutiny to be proper, thought out, intelligent scrutiny. What I don't want is people just reaching for a quick headline, making allegations that are not supported in facts, and thereby putting it about that you know the British Forces are not properly equipped …

HUW EDWARDS:

Okay.

BOB AINSWORTH:

… that they're not properly supported, and effectively undermining the confidence that we should be having in our ability to make progress. When you go out to theatre, there is a real sense of momentum. Our forces out there know what they're doing, they know why they're doing it.

HUW EDWARDS:

(over) They know what they're doing, and yet why do we get constant reports about the fact that the supply of equipment is slow. I read somewhere last week that the Armed Forces have 500 helicopters. There are just 23 of them in Afghanistan at the moment and you've been slow to get things out there.

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well this is another you know inaccuracy. I have to have …

HUW EDWARDS:

Are you happy with the supply chain? Are you happy with the speed with which you've got stuff out there?

BOB AINSWORTH:

No, no I'm not, and I want to do everything that I possibly can to improve the situation and will bend people out of shape in order to do so. But people have to understand that I can't keep helicopter crews permanently in theatre. I have to bring people home, I have to train them here, I have to have helicopters here to train them in. Helicopters break. They're not like the family car. You don't send them in you know for …

HUW EDWARDS:

(over) I understand, but it's a matter of numbers, isn't it?

BOB AINSWORTH:

This is hot, high, dusty. They break. They have to be fetched back here in order to be fixed. So at any one time, I will have - whether I like it or whether I don't - I'll have more helicopters in Britain than I'll have in Afghanistan. If I don't have that, then the helicopter force will not be sustainable. Now we have to explain that to people.

HUW EDWARDS:

Of course and that …

BOB AINSWORTH:

We have to explain that to people.

HUW EDWARDS:

We understand that and we're listening to the explanation. When you say you're not happy with the kind of supply speed and chain, what do you mean you're not happy? What are you not happy with?

BOB AINSWORTH:

I just … I just want us in the MoD - and I've taken steps to try to ensure this - to make absolutely certain that we are as heavily committed at every single part and in every corner of the department to the operation in Afghanistan as we need to be.

HUW EDWARDS:

So we're not?

BOB AINSWORTH:

We can't …

HUW EDWARDS:

So we're not there?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well you can never be there. I mean …

HUW EDWARDS:

I mean this is 8 years after the combat operation started there.

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well you can never be complacent. We've got people in theatre, we've got people dying (as we know) sadly. We've just reached that 200 milestone. If there is anybody who is complacent in such circumstances, then that is not acceptable. If I was complacent, you know that's not acceptable. If I am not you know busting a gut - to use the phrase that the Chief of Defence Staff used the other week - to make sure that every single thing is supplied to our people as quickly as possible, is being done on an ongoing basis, you know then I shouldn't be in the job that I am. So it's absolutely vital that we are constantly looking at what we're doing and whether or not we're doing it well enough.

HUW EDWARDS:

How concerned are you that people are saying directly to you if you'd got helicopters out there more quickly, in greater numbers, lives would have been saved?

BOB AINSWORTH:

I am concerned that you know people think that.

HUW EDWARDS:

Do you think it's wrong?

BOB AINSWORTH:

We have … Well we doubled the number of helicopter hours, almost doubled the number of helicopter hours that we've got for our people in the last just over about two years now. 60% more helicopters. We couldn't put the Merlin out there because we had it in Iraq and we couldn't, we couldn't maintain two separate supply chains to two separate theatres. But now that Iraq is finished and we can bring the Merlin out of Iraq - and we've only just finished that - we'll get the Merlin out into Afghanistan. One of the things I'm trying to do is make absolutely certain that the Merlin goes out there as soon as possible, but I've got to do modifications to the aircraft and I've got to have some pre-deployment training. Because people think that Afghanistan is a similar environment to Iraq. It isn't. It's hot and it's high and it's a very, very different operational theatre.

HUW EDWARDS:

(over) But the consequences of failing to do all of that are clear, aren't they?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well the consequences of us failing to do that would be that people die unnecessarily and that's why it's absolutely vital that we're doing every single thing that we can. Now we've got massive levels of vehicles, over 1,000, about 1200 new, protected vehicles in Helmand. They're continuing to come. We've got a new Mastiff - the Mastiff II. We've got Ridgeback that will be out there in wider numbers for the next division that deploys in October.

HUW EDWARDS:

(over) Shouldn't they have been there for the start of Panther's Claw, which has cost so many lives?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well they couldn't have been because we had to have them manufactured, we had to have them armoured, and we were chasing that all of the time. We had to get the manufacture and the export through the American legal system, and then we had to get British industry to do the uparmouring that was necessary. So Ridgeback was not there in any numbers in the spring …

HUW EDWARDS:

Understood.

BOB AINSWORTH:

… when 19 Brigade deployed. But they will be there ready for 11 Brigade who will put them to good use.

HUW EDWARDS:

You've made that point and that's understood. Again how do you deal with the fact that you have quite a few senior figures who seem to be pointing their finger at you and saying - including Lord Guthrie - we've got no leadership in the top of the Ministry of Defence, and that includes politicians and other people? Is that a point that you think is well made or not?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well I'm not aware Lord Guthrie has attacked me personally. I think he's attacked the government on a regular basis. If he's attacked me personally, then I wouldn't be totally surprised you know by it. But, look, I do believe that this central point that I make is supported by the military as well. They need to know that they have the government support and that they have the people's support.

HUW EDWARDS:

Just for you to know what he says. He says: "The Defence Secretary does not understand that leadership is required from the top. And when I say the top, I mean ministers and the Ministry of Defence". Now that couldn't be clearer, so again how do you deal with that?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Well I don't know what he bases that on. If I'm not showing leadership, then that's a big surprise to me. Look, I know where my loyalties lie. They lie with our Armed Forces. I've been in the Ministry of Defence now for two years - in the second job, not in the top job - and you know to tell you the truth, it's been a life changing experience having the opportunity to mix with our Armed Forces. They are fantastic, incredible people. I don't think that the nation understands you know fully what a great spirit there is - not only a capability, but a fantastic you know spirit there is. That's where my loyalty lies and I will show every single bit of leadership to give those people the support that they deserve.

HUW EDWARDS:

And would you encourage people to think hard about David Richards' point about an involvement in Afghanistan, which could last 30 to 40 years? Would you take people away from that guidance?

BOB AINSWORTH:

Yes, I would. Look, the notion that we are going to be in Afghanistan for 30 to 40 years in anything like the form that we are now is ludicrous. Yes Afghanistan is going to need support for a very, very long time, but I genuinely believe that in the next year or so that we will be able to show a degree of progress. It won't be at a situation where we will be able to pull back, but we will increasingly see the Afghan National Army taking the front. We will be more in a mentoring, in a training situation - supporting them, you know giving them the steel and the capability and the knowledge to be able to do the job that they'll need to do …

HUW EDWARDS:

And in the meantime?

BOB AINSWORTH:

But they'll be taking the lead.

HUW EDWARDS:

And in the meantime, sadly, if things carry on as they are, British losses will go on rising.

BOB AINSWORTH:

I said when I first came into this job that you know you cannot take the risk entirely out of this operation. It's my job to see to it that the supply chain, that the department is flexing every single muscle to minimise the risk. But we will lose people - as we have in the past, we've seen in the past. We will lose more people and we need to show resolve. We need to show resolve as a whole nation. The government … Our Armed Forces have got it, they've got it in spades. We haven't got to worry about them. But the government and the nation needs to get behind them, which is very difficult, but it is vital to our national interest. I really, really believe that. And it's doable, it genuinely is doable.

HUW EDWARDS:

Secretary of State, good of you to join us, thank you very much.

BOB AINSWORTH:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

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NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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